On today’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, Darren speaks to Lee Tunney-Ware, a business performance coach with a unique past and approach to the corporate world.
Having left school before the age of 10, Lee has since carved out a successful career path using the skills he learned from his upbringing on a remote Irish farm. As well as being a father to 11 children, his passion for helping business owners achieve their goals through self-awareness is palpable. Below is what Lee had to say:
Darren: So, one thing I noticed in my research about you is that you and me both have something in common – which is, we were both bullied quite badly at school. I just wanted to touch on that for a moment, and ask what kind of impact that had on you?
Lee: Well, if anything, I think it shaped me. I think it actually gave me the character I have today. My brother and I went to the same school; my brother is partially sighted and a bit autistic. It didn’t help that we moved from the UK to Ireland at the end of the ‘60s, which is where my mum was from, and it wasn’t a good time to have an English accent. I used to get bullied quite a lot, but my brother got it a lot worse. So, I think firstly, it developed my empathy, and my awareness. A few of the roles in my life changed then, because my brother was my older brother, but I had to protect him. So, it was like I became the elder brother. I was only about seven or eight at the time, but I think it broke some of the social constructs we have as humans for me from quite an early age. Some people might say I’m like the alpha, but I’m not – I don’t want to be in charge, I don’t want the responsibility, but I always seem to be at the right place at the right time to deal with things.
Darren: It definitely does affect you – it’s affected me in the way it’s shaped what I do in life. I believe you left school quite early as a result of this, didn’t you?
Lee: Yeah, I left school at about eight and a half years old.
Darren: That is quite early, it has to be said! What was it like leaving school that early, and what did you do after?
Lee: Well, we were taught at home. I’ve got severe dyslexia, so I was taught many things with my hands, like how to build a fence. I could brick-lay at 14, and I was plastering, plumbing … my dad’s philosophy was, if you knew how to add up, and you knew how to communicate, and you could do an invoice, then that was all the skills you needed. Bear in mind I find it very hard, even to this day, to read, and I’m 58.
How an unconventional upbringing taught Lee invaluable skills
So, skills-wise, I think I developed in quite a unique way. My social skills weren’t the best, because we grew up in rural Ireland on a farm, and the houses were so spread out that you didn’t have neighbours. You wouldn’t be able to go and play football with your mates, you never got invited to parties or anything like that, so we didn’t have really social skills. My vocabulary hadn’t really developed, because it was all basic stuff – it would be, “have you put the cows out?” or “have you fixed that fence?” – it was a bit like Groundhog Day. I felt very safe though – it was like living in a bubble. It was only really when my brother, who was three years older than me, started going to discos when he was about 17, that I started to go with him – and that’s when I really started to develop, because the bubble had burst.
For most of my life from that point, from 8 and a half to, say, 14, 15, I’d worked mostly with animals. It’s more of a nonverbal way of communicating, and humans are just mammals really, so you sort of learn to have that instinct. You seem to know what’s going on without it being said, if that makes sense. In many ways, I’m very well educated now, but in those days, while the general reading and writing was at a basic level, my awareness skills with people, I think, was at a much higher level – mainly because of that threat of bullying. So, I wouldn’t change it, because it’s made me who I am.
The one thing I started to notice, which I could never get my head around, is that I could be talking to you, and we could be getting on great, and then somebody else would come in the room, and your personality would change. I always wondered why, and then you realise that somewhere, psychologically, the person who just entered the room had some form of control over the person I’d be speaking to, and it’s amazing to watch the pecking order play out. Whether it’s at a party, a wedding or a business meeting – it’s amazing how people are sort of programmed with that social construct, which seems to just happen organically – I don’t think it’s ever with malicious intent, or planning. It could be that they’re bigger, or stronger, or they’re a star football player, or whatever it may be – it just seems to give them a little bit more authority, and you wonder why doesn’t everybody have the same value, regardless of what they do, or how much they earn, if that makes sense?
Darren: Is that awareness of people, and their personalities changing when they’re around others – is that something that you teach business owners, or can it even be taught?
Lee: It can be taught, because I think what happens is, you’re either entering the conversation, or you’re creating the conversation. That’s the construct – and if there’s a conversation going on that you’re not part of, you can either enter it, or keep out of it.
In business, it’s a totally different level of communication. I think what happens in business, marketing or team communication is that a lot of people are running this social construct-type communication, and they separate professional from personal. You see it a lot in companies where, say, the person in charge of the rotor has a lot of friends, whereas they maybe didn’t have so many friends before they got given that role. So, it begs the question – are we friends with people because we’re friends, or are we friends with people because we’re in a position to open doors for them, so people can utilise it as a tool? I don’t necessarily think it’s toxic, or narcissistic – I don’t think people are even aware of it. We sort of develop these habits, or communication frameworks, that support us when we go into business – it’s task driven. It’s weird to observe, and I suppose because I didn’t have that growing up. I never sort of got indoctrinated into it. But I don’t think it’s conditioning – I think it’s just us as humans, and I don’t think anyone’s to blame. I don’t think it was taught – I think it’s just the way we interact.
Darren: How often do you think it is that that business owners are aware of all this, or are they just kind of plodding along and not realising that there is some sort of internal social struggle going on within their business?
Lee: I think they’re aware, as in they see the consequences of it, but a lot of the time, I don’t think they understand why the consequences are there. It’s basically the culmination of micro-moments. Subconsciously, it’s the small things that seem to make the biggest impacts. So, it’s about having clear communication. I don’t think business owners are aware that, when it comes to communication, our feelings often get in the way, and we end up second guessing things. It’s about coming back to that awareness. If you’re calculating the wrong data, and coming up with the wrong outcome – like, “Darren doesn’t like me, I can tell by the way he didn’t look at me during the meeting”, then you might be plodding along thinking that everyone’s on the same page when, in reality, they’re not.
The importance of scheduling proper downtime in our busy lives
I think part of it is due to not having proper “cushion” time. Before Covid, you’d have those gaps in the day where you were travelling to work or to meetings in the car or on the tube, and you’d have that time to reflect. Now, it’s just back-to-back Zoom meetings. I don’t know about you, but I get a much better sense of what’s happening in my life when I have downtime. You might be thinking, “well, I’ve got a lot on”, and yeah, we all have a lot on, but who’s in charge of your diary? That’s where success is made. Success is scheduled, well-being is scheduled, and happiness is scheduled. If you’re stretching the week, you end up maybe taking the weekend from the kids, or from your partner. I used to do this – I wouldn’t have time to go to the kids’ rugby matches, or wouldn’t want to go for a weekend away if I had a busy week the next week, because I knew I’d be exhausted. We need to have that bit of cushion time to reflect – even if it’s just taking 10 or 15 minutes a couple of times throughout the day. We’re not on a conveyor belt – we don’t have to be busy all the time, and we can be more productive and look after ourselves better by taking those small moments. It’s about how we serve the asset – the human – which can have a knock-on effect on how we interact with the family. You can give yourself that bit of time back to look at the kids’ homework, or their crayon drawing – it might mean nothing to you, but it means everything to them.
Darren: Yeah, those are the things you’re going to remember – not the Zoom meeting you had on the 3rd of January, 2023. Speaking of kids, I believe you’ve got one or two kids yourself – 11! Were you trying to get trying to get a cricket team going?
Lee: Well, I love my wife – I suppose that’s the easiest way to say it! And we love kids, so yeah.
It can be quite challenging – we’ve got five teenagers at the minute – but we manage. You learn a lot, because you’re literally living in a crowd. Behind closed doors, we all get to see each other’s personalities and idiosyncrasies, and the way they handle things, so it gives you good skills – as long as you don’t react, which is the self-awareness. It comes back to overwhelm – I’ve learned that if I’ve had a busy week, and you’ve got a lot going on, it can make your snappy, or you can be quick to react, and while that may be how you feel in the moment, it doesn’t serve anyone.
Going back to earlier – it might only be a micro-moment, but if you don’t manage those micro moments, they become the condition of the program. So, it’s that moment to breathe. Family is a good place to see it, and it’s true in business, too. The true value of any brand, or the true value of any communication, is connection – and you can’t connect if you’re in a social construct. You can only connect within the programming, or the conditioning. In a family, when mum and dad aren’t around, it’s the oldest child who usually becomes top of the pecking order – so in the case of my family, it’ll be my oldest boy. But when you go into a company, and you’ve got the newbie who might be bright as a spark, but only 21, and you’re in that pecking order culture, a 21-year may neither be seen nor respected. Age is a funny thing, and can become part of an unconscious bias when we don’t have that awareness.
The way I see things, there are only three types of feelings, and they’re emotional, physical or spiritual – like, an energy, or a “chi”. There are so many different feelings that we have names and labels for, but as far as I’m concerned, it all comes down to those three. There’s your wellbeing, your thoughts, and then your imagination – which is where it gets a little complicated, as your memories and past experiences overlay. Worry, concern and doubt are all future based –it’s biological, and has a lot to do with your sympathetic nervous system. Same with physical – it comes down to that reptilian brain people, where people come back from war zones and have a reaction to a car backfiring, because they think it’s a gun. That nervous system reacts, and that’s where stress forms.
That’s where we need that self-awareness, and that self-management – whether it’s at home with the family, or in business. You can ask yourself “why am I feeling like this?” and it will always come back to one of those three things. The bullying I experienced in the past taught me this. The “chi” energy can be reflected in your demeanour – if you’ve had a stressful day, and you don’t have that awareness, it can rub off on your family, or on your team at work. You don’t have to raise your voice, even – it can just be the tonality, and in the way you say things, that can impact others because of their own past experiences, and their own micro moments.
Darren: It all makes sense – and I can understand why you’re working with businesses on this. It’s never occurred to me that the way you say something impacts the way somebody takes it, but of course it does – it’s just never occurred to me within a business environment. So, I’m going to be conscious of that now, and careful how I phrase things, and the tonality of what I say.
It’s been fascinating, but we’re unfortunately out of time! If someone’s listening to this, and they think “wow, this guy can solve my business problems”, what’s the best way for someone to get in contact with you?
Lee: The easiest way is on LinkedIn – just search for me and say you heard me on Darren’s podcast. I’m always happy to connect with people!
Darren: Thank you, Lee, it’s been brilliant. I’ve learned loads, which is one of the main reasons I do these podcasts, so thank you very much.
Lee: Thank you for having me!
About Lee:
Lee Tunney-Ware is an international business performance coach whose unconventional upbringing has allowed him to bring fresh perspective to the business world. You can connect with Lee here:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lee-tunney-ware
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leon.tunneyware/
About your host:
Darren has worked within digital marketing since the last century, and was the first in-house web designer for video games retailer GAME in the UK, known as Electronics Boutique in the States. After co-founding his own agency, Engage Web, in 2009, Darren has worked with clients around the world, including Australia, Canada and the USA.
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/engaging-marketeer/id1612454837
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenjamieson/
Engaging Marketeer: https://engagingmarketeer.com
Engage Web: https://www.engageweb.co.uk
