Darren: On this week’s Engaging Marketeer, I am speaking to Joanne Moss of Moss HR. Joanne helps people with the HR in their businesses, as you would expect. So I am going to be talking to Jo about what is a fascinating, truly fascinating and terrifying subject and all of the things that can go horrifically wrong if you get your HR wrong when you are hiring, firing, setting contracts and running your business.
[01:06] Darren: If you do not have an HR consultant in your business, you will absolutely need to listen to this, because this could cost you tens of thousands of pounds just by asking the wrong question at an interview.
[01:18] Darren: Tell me, as an HR consultant and outsourced HR company, what got you first interested in HR? Because it is not the kind of thing people dream of doing in school.
[01:30] Joanne: No, it is not, and I did not dream of doing that in school either. I fell into HR really. Even worse, I wanted to be an accountant when I was at school.
[01:44] Darren: That is even worse.
[01:46] Joanne: Yes. I started off in a firm of accountants. I was a bookkeeper and I did payroll as well, very old-fashioned payroll with printed tax tables, manually calculating payroll and manual bookkeeping. I did that for about four or five years.
[02:18] Joanne: Then one role I went for, the manager at the time said, “Yes, it is finance, it is payroll and this thing called personnel.” This was about 1998 or 1999. I did not really know what that was, but I thought I would give it a go.
[02:28] Joanne: I started the following week and found out the previous person had already left, so I was on my own. Then I discovered that finance was centralised in Manchester and I was in Suffolk. There was no finance. There was payroll, which was fine, and the rest was this personnel thing.
[02:54] Joanne: There were about 250 employees, five out-bases, warehousing and logistics. I spent the first three weeks going home crying because I had no idea what I was doing. It was completely over my head. No one in the business really knew what the job entailed. But I am not one to give up easily, so I stuck at it and ended up loving it. It was self-taught. When I left there, I went into my first full-time HR role.
[03:25] Darren: What changed from you going home crying to then you loving it? What made it different?
[03:30] Joanne: One, I do not give up easily. I was in a role where there was something I did not know how to do, so I researched what personnel was. Payroll gave me a little understanding, but it is quite different. So I did research, spoke to people and learned on my feet.
[04:00] Joanne: What lit the flame for me was realising I could influence how people felt at work. If someone has an accident and has been off work, the longer they are off, the harder it can be to return. They might have changed physically, their skills might not be the same, or emotionally it might be difficult. I realised I could influence that and make it better for people and get them back sooner, which benefits the employer and the employee.
[04:52] Darren: I think there is a lack of understanding of how it affects people when they are away from work. Not just accidents or sickness. It can be something as simple as a holiday, maternity or any kind of leave. Any absence makes coming back daunting.
[05:24] Darren: We had a member in our BNI who was anxious about speaking. He got better, still hyperventilated, but could do it. Then he got married, was away for three weeks and never came back. Not because he did not like BNI, but because the three weeks away made him anxious again.
[05:55] Joanne: No, I do not think people realise that. There are simple things to help reduce that stress. Staying in touch, reassurance. At BNI I say to nervous visitors, “If you are worried, I will meet you in the car park.” Even walking into a room is stressful for some.
[06:49] Joanne: When I had my daughter, I resigned from my corporate role and worked for myself, so I did not have traditional maternity leave. But being away for months or even a year can mean returning to a different organisation entirely. People, desks, clients, processes can all change.
[07:20] Joanne: I tell clients to treat returning employees like new starters. Stay in touch, update them, use keeping in touch days to reduce stress.
[07:39] Darren: Friendship dynamics also change. I remember in school, if one of us was absent, dynamics shifted. Kids are horrible, but the principle is similar in the workplace. Absence makes you anxious about things that may not even happen.
[09:07] Joanne: Yes, and sometimes it is fear of the unknown. Things have changed while you were away, but you do not know what. And if someone has covered your role, there is fear they might have done it better. Insecurity kicks in. So staying in touch is important.
[09:43] Darren: That is good advice. As an employee, if you go into a meeting with a manager and HR is in the room, something has gone wrong and you are probably in trouble. I have been there. You mentioned a guy who sneered at you because he had been made redundant and blamed HR.
[10:20] Joanne: Yes. He continued making comments throughout the workshop. He had a bad redundancy experience and took it out on me because I was HR. HR delivers the message but does not always make the decisions. We deal with negative things: grievances, absences, dismissals. HR gets blamed, but we can also have a positive influence and make a difference to the bottom line.
[10:53] Darren: Some people sneer at HR and think it is soft skills. “I do not need that crap in my business.” But mistakes can be disastrous without HR advice. Can you give examples?
[12:30] Joanne: Yes. People do not know what they do not know. My strapline is “People management made simple” because HR is process. You can make a fair decision, but if you have not followed the process, it can be automatically unfair.
[12:56] Joanne: I often see job ads that say “young lad wanted” or “school leaver wanted.” They mean they want a strong man, but legally it is risky. I message them to warn them. Builders especially do this.
[13:33] Darren: Someone in our BNI literally said, “I want strong young men, nobody over 40.” You cannot say that.
[13:58] Joanne: Exactly. People do not know. They should describe the job, not the person. Even my daughter noticed her teacher saying “strong lads to move tables.” She said, “I am strong.” It is ingrained early.
[14:49] Joanne: When hiring, there are rules you must follow. Speaking to an expert keeps you out of trouble. You do not have to employ someone to be taken to a tribunal. Discrimination can occur at the application stage.
[15:15] Darren: They can do that as soon as they apply.
[15:20] Joanne: Yes. At interview, there are questions you cannot ask anymore. For example: “Are you planning to start a family?” Even “Do you smoke?”
[15:39] Darren: The family one is so common. “What does your husband do? Do you own your home?” None of that matters.
[15:57] Darren: It is easy to get it right but also easy to get it wrong. What could happen if someone asked a woman, “Are you expecting to have a baby in the next five years?”
[16:26] Joanne: If she does not get the job and a man gets it, she could claim direct sex discrimination. Tribunals have no cap on discrimination awards. It could be a massive payout. Even settling before tribunal requires huge time, legal fees, stress and PR damage.
[17:01] Joanne: Asking the wrong question could cost you thousands or tens of thousands of pounds. There is no excuse to say “I didn’t know.” As an employer you should know.
[17:34] Joanne: I liken it to driving. You can speed, not wear a seatbelt, not pay tax. You may get away with it, but one day you might not. With HR, you can ignore rules, dismiss people unfairly and discriminate, and you might get away with it, until the day you do not.
[17:53] Darren: I was wincing because I am on nine points.
[18:05] Joanne: Touch wood, most of my clients call me before doing anything now. A quick phone call can prevent disasters.
[20:05] Darren: Do people know their rights as employees? For example, they must receive a contract on day one.
[20:12] Joanne: People know more than they used to, thanks to social media and the internet. But it is not always accurate.
[20:18] Darren: You cannot trust social media or AI.
[20:26] Joanne: Exactly. Someone used an AI tool to write case law in court and it was fake. The solicitor got struck off.
[21:06] Joanne: You can often tell if a grievance was written by AI. They quote incorrect employment law.
[21:20] Darren: Businesses start with lifestyle goals, not HR goals. No one wants meetings, payroll, disciplinary processes.
[21:45] Darren: What is the absolute minimum HR a business hiring staff needs?
[21:52] Joanne: A good employment contract that reflects your business. Borrowing one from a corporate company is not suitable. It must match what happens in practice. You also need essential policies: disciplinary, grievance, absence. Everything should be transparent.
[22:53] Darren: Dismissing staff incorrectly can be costly. I worked somewhere years ago where the owners accessed a man’s personal Hotmail because MSN signed in automatically on his work machine. They sacked him. Completely illegal.
[24:02] Darren: He went to Eversheds and got a huge settlement. They even let him write his own reference. All because they had no HR advice.
[24:49] Joanne: Yes. A simple phone call can prevent disaster. As an employer, you should know the rules.
[25:38] Darren: You keep bringing it back to driving. Road signs lie in Wales. Some say 30 but are actually 20.
[25:58] Joanne: Do they still say 30?
[26:05] Darren: Yes. I would argue that if I got caught.
[26:10] Darren: You joined BNI. When was that?
[26:17] Joanne: I joined in 2020, in the middle of COVID.
[26:23] Darren: You hated networking.
[26:30] Joanne: Yes. I was a sole trader for ten years. In 2019 I became a limited company and knew I had to network. I joined a women’s networking group. Did not like it. It was mainly B2C.
[27:17] Joanne: My year ended March 2020. A couple of people told me to try BNI. I visited a meeting in Cambridge online. There were two other HR consultants present as visitors. I thought “they are not having that seat,” so I joined straight away.
[27:53] Joanne: I loved it from the beginning. I like structure and process, and BNI appealed to that. The group was supportive during COVID.
[28:50] Joanne: Going back in person was daunting. I joined in July, became President the following April, and ran the first in-person meeting after lockdown. It was in a huge auditorium. But it cured my fear of presenting.
[29:56] Darren: Those intangible skills are what people often gain from networking.
[30:14] Darren: Why did you hate the women’s group but love BNI?
[30:59] Joanne: The women’s group felt like a lunch club. My time was limited with young children, and the meetings took up my whole day. It did not grow my business. I needed B2B.
[32:01] Joanne: The women’s group had a subbing policy, but it was monthly and had no accountability. No training, no one-to-ones, nothing like BNI. BNI offered development, which helped me grow.
[33:04] Darren: How long until your first good referral?
[33:12] Joanne: About four months. HR takes trust. People sometimes feel embarrassed coming to me because their HR is a mess. I love a mess because I can make a difference.
[34:02] Joanne: I still have clients from 2020. BNI is a long-term relationship strategy.
[34:30] Darren: How did you find giving referrals?
[35:03] Joanne: Easy. Many referrals I give are not from people I already know. I reach out on behalf of members.
[35:27] Joanne: Example: A new member with a kitchen showroom told me someone he wanted to meet. I contacted them and said, “He is brilliant, here is his website.” That person sent him ten projects.
[35:56] Darren: Ten?
[36:01] Joanne: Yes. It is about looking for opportunities. People ask me for recommendations because they know I have a network.
[36:46] Joanne: A cowboy builder will not join BNI because they would have to face the chapter each week after bad work.
[37:41] Darren: You say 99% are trustworthy. There is 1% that is not. I had a member who did not pay me. Found out later he had done it in another region too.
[38:48] Darren: What is your take on warning others?
[39:07] Joanne: It is tricky because you only ever hear one side. They might not have paid because the work was poor. Or maybe they never received what they needed from the client. So I tend to advise caution, like “maybe take money up front.”
[41:21] Darren: Companies do not realise references must be factual, not opinions.
[41:56] Joanne: Yes. Always ask for written consent before giving a reference. Stick to facts.
[42:16] Darren: Companies now only confirm dates and absences because they are scared of being sued.
[42:52] Joanne: It is a minefield.
[42:58] Darren: You are putting me off HR again.
[43:05] Joanne: Hopefully I am putting people on to using HR support instead of doing it themselves. HR is a process. If you follow it and act fairly, things should go smoothly.
[43:23] Darren: Should go smoothly.
[43:30] Darren: Biggest mistake businesses make?
[43:43] Joanne: Not keeping contracts and policies up to date. People borrow contracts from past employers without knowing what is in them. They forget what they say. If you dismiss someone and your contract says three months’ notice, you must give three months.
[44:51] Joanne: Always reread your policy before using it. If you do not follow your own process, tribunals will criticise you.
[45:58] Darren: People think they can download a contract template online and be fine.
[46:17] Joanne: Yes, but one: you do not know if it is up to date. Two: you do not know what clauses mean. Three: it may not fit your business.
[46:38] Joanne: I created a toolkit for people taking on their first employee.
[46:53] Darren: Tell us about the toolkit.
[47:07] Joanne: It is not just documents. It is videos that explain what employers need to know, with notes showing what can and cannot be changed. It gives people real understanding.
[47:53] Darren: How much is the toolkit?
[47:59] Joanne: £450 plus VAT, includes one year of updates.
[48:53] Darren: Being an employer is getting scary. All these new rules coming in. Harder to dismiss someone. Companies feel it is risky to grow.
[49:01] Joanne: At the moment you need two years’ service to claim unfair dismissal. The proposal is that it will become a day-one right. It might change to six months with a statutory probationary period. No one knows yet.
[49:35] Joanne: If you recruit properly and induct properly, the risk is low anyway.
[50:04] Darren: I fear it pushes businesses to be scared of hiring.
[50:26] Joanne: Yes, I think it has already impacted recruitment. National Insurance rises, sick pay from day one. The recruitment market has not recovered.
[50:56] Darren: That is a jovial ending.
[51:02] Joanne: The positive thing is we can help. Do not be scared. As long as you do things properly and get advice, everything is fine.
[51:15] Darren: If you go alone, mistakes will be costly.
[51:20] Joanne: Yes. Like that company that accessed an employee’s personal email and got sued.
[51:32] Darren: Do not do that.
[51:36] Darren: If people want to contact you because they realise they need HR help, what is the best way?
[51:45] Joanne: Through the website mosshr.com, or on LinkedIn, or email jo@mossHR.com.
[51:53] Darren: Thank you for being on the podcast. I have loved it. I have learned things. You have scared me a bit, but that is okay.
[52:05] Joanne: Thank you so much.
[52:07] Darren: See you later.
