Darren Jamieson:
On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I am joined by Les Murray of 20-20 Coaching. I first met Les at a Professional Speaking Association meeting, at a time when many of us were reassessing our skills, our direction, and what we wanted to be better at.
Les works with people who want clarity, confidence, and better decision making, particularly when the pressure is on. His journey into coaching and public speaking did not come from a desire to be on stage or perform. It came from recognising moments where he wanted to help but realised he was not yet equipped to do so properly.
In this conversation, we talk about feeling out of your depth, why public speaking is really about clear thinking rather than confidence, how competence is built through repetition, and why leadership is something you grow into through responsibility, not something you claim through a title.
So let’s start at the beginning.
Les, what took you to the Professional Speaking Association, and what first sparked your interest in public speaking?
Feeling out of your depth is often the moment growth really begins
Darren Jamieson:
I remember standing there thinking I was completely out of my depth. I wanted to help, but I genuinely did not know how. That moment was uncomfortable because it stripped away any illusion that good intentions alone were enough.
What made it significant was not the discomfort itself, but what it revealed. It showed there was a gap between where I was and the level of responsibility I had stepped into. A lot of people experience that feeling and immediately retreat. They either avoid those situations in future or mask the gap with bravado.
The alternative is to acknowledge it honestly and treat it as feedback. Feeling out of your depth is often not a sign you should not be there. It is a sign that you have arrived somewhere new and need to grow into it. That realisation reframes discomfort from something to avoid into something useful.
Public speaking exposes gaps in thinking faster than almost anything else
Les Murray:
Public speaking was never about performance for me. It was about clarity. When you have to articulate something in front of other people, especially people who are paying attention, there is nowhere to hide.
You very quickly discover whether your thinking is solid or vague. Ideas that feel clear in your head can fall apart when spoken out loud. That is uncomfortable, but it is also incredibly valuable. It highlights exactly what you need to work on.
That is why public speaking became such a powerful development tool. It forces structure, discipline, and precision. You cannot rely on instinct or half formed ideas. You have to know what you are saying and why you are saying it.
Confidence is not something you summon, it is something you earn
Les Murray:
There is a widespread belief that confident people start confident. They do not. Confidence is built after competence, not before it.
Competence comes from repetition, exposure, and doing the work when it feels uncomfortable. Each time you step into a situation where you are stretched and handle it slightly better than last time, confidence grows naturally.
Trying to feel confident before you have earned it usually leads to overcompensation or avoidance. Real confidence is quieter than that. It comes from knowing you have done the work and can rely on your ability, even when things do not go perfectly.
Coaching is about creating clarity, not providing solutions
Les Murray:
One of the most common misunderstandings about coaching is that it is about fixing people or giving them answers. In reality, that approach often creates dependency rather than progress.
Effective coaching is about helping people slow down their thinking, examine their assumptions, and arrive at conclusions they genuinely believe in. That happens through questions, not instructions.
This requires a different mindset. You have to let go of the need to be right or to appear knowledgeable. The role of a coach is not to impress. It is to facilitate clarity. That can only happen when you are comfortable sitting with uncertainty and allowing the other person space to think.
Leadership is developed through responsibility, not recognition
Darren Jamieson:
Leadership is not something you become because of a title or a role. It develops when you take responsibility for people, decisions, and outcomes over time.
That responsibility often brings discomfort with it. You carry the weight of consequences, not just for yourself but for others. That is why leadership feels challenging even when you are experienced.
If you are growing properly, that edge never fully disappears. The absence of discomfort is usually a sign that you are no longer stretching yourself. Leadership is not about feeling comfortable. It is about being accountable.
Real development starts with honest self assessment
Les Murray:
Growth starts with acknowledging reality. There is a moment where you have to admit, honestly, that there is a gap between where you are and where you want to be.
That admission is not weakness. It is clarity. Once you can see the gap clearly, you can start closing it deliberately through learning, practice, and experience.
Pretending you are ready when you are not only delays progress. Becoming ready requires patience and commitment, but it also leads to genuine confidence and capability that cannot be faked.
About Les Murray:
Les Murray is a coach and speaker at 20-20 Coaching, working with individuals and business leaders who want greater clarity, confidence, and stronger decision making, particularly when operating under pressure or responsibility.
His journey into coaching and public speaking did not come from performance or presentation, but from recognising moments where he wanted to help others and realised he was not yet equipped to do so effectively. That honesty led him to develop his communication, thinking, and leadership skills through environments such as the Professional Speaking Association. Les focuses on competence before confidence, helping people grow into leadership roles through clearer thinking, better questions, and personal accountability. His work centres on the belief that real development starts by acknowledging gaps, taking responsibility, and committing to consistent improvement.
You can connect with Les here:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesmurray/
YouTube: https://youtube.com/@20-20management?si=_Ca9_0UANYAklH7v
Website: https://20-20management.com/
About your host:
Darren has worked within digital marketing since the last century, and was the first in-house web designer for video games retailer GAME in the UK, known as Electronics Boutique in the States. After co-founding his own agency, Engage Web, in 2009, Darren has worked with clients around the world, including Australia, Canada and the USA.
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/engaging-marketeer/id1612454837
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenjamieson/
Engaging Marketeer: https://engagingmarketeer.com
Engage Web: https://www.engageweb.co.uk
