Today’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer is going to be a bit of a strange one — because all I’m going to be doing is talking about beer.
I’m a massive beer fan, and I’m very excited to be speaking with Martin Haley, who is the face of Rocker’s Beer Review on YouTube.
Martin drinks beer, talks about it, films it, uploads the videos… and then does it all again. And again. And again. He has hundreds of videos on his YouTube channel just drinking and talking about beer.
I am in awe of this man. He’s living the dream.
So let’s find out why Martin started doing this — and just what the hell this has to do with marketing. Trust me, there’s a link.
Martin, let’s start with the most important thing to you and me. Let’s start with beer.
Martin Haley: Great place to start — with beer.
Darren Jamieson: You’ve set up a YouTube channel dedicated to videos of you drinking and reviewing beer. Other than obviously getting to drink the beer, what was the reason for starting that?
Martin Haley: Yeah, it’s a tough gig really. I mean, it’s a bit of a cliché, but it all sort of started during the first lockdown in 2020. I was at home, wanted to do something different, and I’d just discovered craft beer at that point.
I started looking on the internet at other people talking about beer, and thought, “Yeah, I could do that.” And I thought YouTube was a good way to try it. I watch a lot of YouTube, but I didn’t really know how it all worked.
It seemed like something I could do without much of a setup. I didn’t need to be an expert videographer. I was literally just sitting there.
But I also wanted to bring in something else. I’m really into rock music as well, so I wanted to combine that. Hence the name Rocker’s Beer Review.
I’ve had the nickname “Rocker” for years — since university, actually. I met these people who weren’t into rock music, and I’d always turn up in my metal t-shirts. They said, “Yeah, we’re going to call you Rocker from now on.” The name stuck.
[03:26]
Darren Jamieson: So just because you liked a different type of music, you were suddenly “the rocker”?
Martin Haley: Yeah, I had long hair at the time. I looked like the nerdy rocker in my team — scraggly, greasy hair, the works.
My fashion sense hasn’t really improved in 30-plus years. I still wear heavy metal t-shirts when I’m not working, and I still love the music.
So I wanted to combine the beer and the rock music. In terms of the demographic, there’s a lot of crossover. People who like craft beer often like rock music too — it fits together nicely.
Darren Jamieson: Makes sense.
Martin Haley: And again, it was something I just wanted to do. I had no real plan.
I thought, “Yeah, I’ll drink beer on the internet. That sounds like a good gig.” And if I’m lucky, maybe some breweries will send me free beer.
Darren Jamieson: So… have you had beer sent to you for free?
Martin Haley: I knew you’d ask that. And I’d love to tell you that breweries are knocking on my door, sending me more beer than I can drink.
But honestly, I’ve had one case of beer sent to me. Just one. And it was non-alcoholic.
Darren Jamieson: Ouch.
Martin Haley: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t call myself an influencer, but you get a lot of so-called influencers contacting breweries and saying,
“Oh, I’ll talk about your beer on the internet if you send me ten of your best.”
And most breweries say no. They don’t want to get involved in that.
The independent breweries I review are usually struggling — probably more so now than ever — so they need support.
And I’m happy to give it. I’m going to drink the beer anyway.
I don’t go out of my way to drink beer I know I’m not going to like. So most of my reviews are pretty positive.
Unless it’s supermarket stuff — I can be a bit snobbish about that.
[05:39]
Darren Jamieson: That influencer behaviour happens across industries, doesn’t it? From wedding photographers to car companies.
“Give me a freebie and I’ll stick it on my blog, or Insta.” It’s irritating.
I got into a massive row a few years ago with Jay Hutton — the tattooist from Tattoo Fixers on TV. He put out a post looking for a photographer to shoot his wedding… for free.
A photographer hit back publicly, saying it was bad form, because Jay’s a creative too and should know better. I posted something on the Chester Bugle, saying if anyone wanted a tattoo from Jay at his studio in Ellesmere Port, he’d do it for free — as long as they put it on Instagram.
Then his team messaged me threatening to sue me if I didn’t take it down. Spoiler alert: they never did.
So it’s nice to hear you actually buy your beer. That’s beautiful.
[06:37]
Darren Jamieson: You mentioned supermarket beers — you’re not that keen on them. But isn’t Polly’s Beer one of your favourites? And they’re in supermarkets now, right?
Martin Haley: Yeah, they are. And I’ve actually raved recently about their latest supermarket beer.
The problem with supermarket beer, and this is getting into the economics of it, is that a lot of the bigger craft breweries — I’m talking about names like Tiny Rebel and BrewDog — end up having to compromise.
Darren Jamieson: Tiny Rebel — that’s just around the corner from my old primary school.
Martin Haley: Exactly. I knew that.
So here’s the thing. Supermarkets squeeze these breweries on margins, so they can’t make the same quality beer that you’d pay a fiver for in a bottle shop. If you’re buying something for £3, there’s going to be a compromise.
Now, when there isn’t a compromise, it works really well. And I think Polly’s have found a clever way of doing it. Here’s my theory — I don’t know this for sure, but I think it’s smart:
They do a limited supermarket run. People buy the beer, love it, and think, “Wow, this is great value.” Then they go back to the supermarket… and it’s gone. Sold out. Limited run.
So now they go and Google Polly’s. They find the brewery’s website. And before they know it, they’re buying beer online, becoming a fan, maybe even lining their shelf with empty cans like trophies.
I think that strategy works really well.
[08:12]
But a lot of the other breweries — like Tiny Rebel, BrewDog, Beavertown — they seem focused on volume for supermarkets. The quality takes a hit because of that.
I mean, Beavertown isn’t even really craft anymore since Heineken bought them.
Darren Jamieson: BrewDog pitched to Dragons’ Den, didn’t they? And got rejected.
Martin Haley: Yeah, they didn’t even get on in front of the dragons. Someone missed a big opportunity there.
Darren Jamieson: That’s wild. I’ve never really thought about the difference between a beer you buy in a supermarket — same brand — and what you’d get directly from the brewery, or on draught.
Like, how big is that difference?
Martin Haley: Well, if you’re talking about something like Tiny Rebel’s Clwb Tropica, that’s the same beer wherever you get it. It’s brewed on a massive scale.
But there are lots of Tiny Rebel beers you’ll never find in supermarkets. They release special editions — like a recent rugby-themed set with beers for England, Scotland, etc. Those are better quality.
They’re small-batch. They’ve got more hops. They’re more expensive to make. And they cost more in bottle shops — but they’re worth it.
[09:44]
You’ve got to admire some of the marketing these breweries do. BrewDog, Tiny Rebel — they’re smart marketers.
But is it all about marketing and less about quality? That’s the question.
As a craft beer drinker — maybe a snob, maybe a connoisseur — you can taste the difference. There’s a clear gap between what those big names are doing and what you get from a small batch brewery.
[12:50]
Martin Haley: I’ve had a fair bit of Polly’s from Beer Heroes in Chester.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, they’re well distributed — good bottle shop.
Martin Haley: They are. Polly’s is still very small. If you compare them to someone like Tiny Rebel, it’s night and day. Polly’s brew a lot of beer, but in small batches. They might release five or six different beers a week, and they’re all limited runs.
They play with styles — pale ales, IPAs, double IPAs, triple IPAs, stouts, lagers, sours — but everything’s brewed in small quantities. That’s why the quality’s so high.
Even the likes of Beavertown, before they were bought by Heineken, were considered cutting edge. But once the scale kicks in, quality drops. It’s just like any business — once you scale up, maintaining quality gets hard.
Darren Jamieson: Same in every industry. When it’s just you, crafting something, you control every detail. But scale it, bring other people in, and it’s harder to keep that standard.
Martin Haley: Exactly. You can get a supermarket IPA for £3–3.50, but a really good one from a bottle shop is £5–5.50 or more.
Supermarket beer gets people into craft. That’s how it worked for me. Someone wants something different from lager, tries a few supermarket options, gets a taste for it, and then thinks, “What else is out there?”
Before they know it, they’re on to the good stuff.
[15:17]
Darren Jamieson: So your YouTube channel — you’re drinking beer, reviewing it, and mixing in rock music. How do you stay consistent with posting videos? Are you ever worried you’ll run out of beer — or get too fat from drinking it all?
Martin Haley: You’ve got to be careful. But people think I drink loads of beer — I actually don’t review every beer I drink.
When it comes to YouTube, it’s all about consistency. If you post once a week or every couple of weeks, your channel won’t grow.
I try to post three or four times a week. When I started, I was posting daily. Some beer YouTubers do two or three reviews a day.
Darren Jamieson: Bloody hell.
Martin Haley: Yeah, they probably review every beer they drink. But you do have to slow it down.
I usually record a few on a Friday or Saturday — maybe two or three — then release them across the week. That keeps it steady.
And I’m not drinking huge amounts. Some of the beers are 8% double IPAs — you’re not going to be necking four or five of those a night. So it balances out.
[17:28]
If anything, there’s too much beer and not enough money or time to get through it all.
You don’t see a YouTube beer reviewer getting slimmer over time — let’s just say that.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, I’ve seen some of them reviewing three in a row and thinking, “He’s not sober anymore.”
There was a Fast Show sketch with a guy just hammered doing reviews, and a Hale and Pace one where the guy’s reviewing a holiday — starts off fresh and ends the night being thrown out of a restaurant.
You’re not worried about ending up like that?
Martin Haley: I’ve been there. Early on, I did a few where I had two or three and thought, “Yeah, I’ll just wing it.” And to be honest, those reviews were better — more free-flowing, more flamboyant.
People often ask, “What’s the hardest part about reviewing beer online?”
Honestly? You open the fridge, and you just want to have a beer — not review it. Or you’ve already had a couple and want another, but you think, “I can’t drink that one, I want to review it.”
So the hardest part is having a fridge full of beer you feel like you can’t touch unless you’re filming.
[19:18]
Darren Jamieson: So do you make a conscious decision that every beer you buy has to be something new you haven’t had before?
Martin Haley: Yeah, pretty much. The only time I’ll drink the same beer more than once is if it’s a supermarket beer — because they’re cheaper and easy to grab.
But from a bottle shop? I rarely buy the same one twice.
The nature of craft beer is small batch. A brewery might release something one week, and a month later, it’s gone. Sold out. If they do brew it again, it might not be for a year.
There’s just so much being released — and I’m only talking UK breweries here. I’m not even digging into the international stuff.
Darren Jamieson: That’s part of the appeal for you, then? The variety?
Martin Haley: Exactly. That’s why I love it. Every beer is different.
Sure, I’ve got my favourite styles — like New England IPAs — but even two of those can taste very different depending on the hops. It’s exciting. It keeps things fresh.
I’m always looking for something new.
[21:19]
Darren Jamieson: See, I drink a lot of the same beers again and again. I’m always worried I’ll get one I hate.
And I match beers to the occasion. Like for the Super Bowl — which by the time this podcast goes out will have been and gone, and the 49ers will probably have lost — I like to drink American beers.
Lagunitas IPA used to be my go-to. But I can’t find it anywhere now. It’s just vanished from the shelves.
You’re the beer guy — what’s happened to Lagunitas in the UK? Why can’t I get it anymore?
Martin Haley: Honestly? Probably because it’s not that good.
I mean, you’re not a total craft ale snob, are you?
Darren Jamieson: Hey now.
Martin Haley: It’s one of those beers you’d find on a Blade machine tap, or on Beer Hawk. And importing beer like that — especially from the States — has got really expensive.
[22:21]
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, I’ve seen it on the Blade machines, but I don’t want 12 pints of it. I just want a few bottles — enough for the Super Bowl.
Martin Haley: Exactly. And with things like Brexit, import tax, and transport costs, it’s harder to bring in American beer.
If you want a top US craft beer — something from Trillium or Monkish — you’re looking at £12 for one can. One.
Darren Jamieson: Wow.
Martin Haley: Yeah. It’s a 473ml US pint can, and you’re paying £12.
You’ve got to be really into your beer to justify that. And have the budget.
European craft beers used to be easier to get too, but again — costs have gone up. So people naturally turn to UK craft instead, because it’s cheaper and still very good.
[24:00]
Martin Haley: And there’s another issue — big breweries are lowering the ABV of their beers to save on duty.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, I’ve noticed that.
Martin Haley: Their narrative is, “UK drinkers don’t want high ABV beer anymore.” Absolute rubbish.
They’re just cutting the alcohol so they can save money on tax. You see beers go from 3.8% to 3.4% quietly, with no price drop, and the breweries pocket the duty savings.
Meanwhile, go to a bottle shop and ask what people are buying — they’ll tell you it’s all double and triple IPAs at 8–10%. The demand for stronger, quality craft beer is still there.
Darren Jamieson: The most I ever paid for a beer was in Oslo — £13 for what wasn’t even a full pint. I still remember the name. It was called Liquid Sex Robot.
Martin Haley: That’s a hell of a name.
Darren Jamieson: Right? The name alone dragged me in. But £13. That’s stuck with me for years.
[25:36]
And what you said about taxes makes sense. I met a guy in Chester years ago who was brewing Transformers-themed beers.
He had one called Tymus Prime — an oat beer — and a double IPA called Instruments of Destruction, named after the song from the Transformers movie.
He was brilliant, but he stopped brewing. Just couldn’t make money from it. He ended up taking over a bar in Chester — it used to be called “With a K”, now it’s the Deva Tap.
Martin Haley: Yeah, I know it. Great beer — sad to hear it’s gone.
That’s the thing. Every week you hear about another brewery going under. Even the ones you thought were untouchable.
Take North — based in Leeds. Big brewery, in supermarkets, been around ages. They came close to liquidation recently. Got bought out just in time by another brewery.
[27:11]
It costs a lot to make beer. Hops come from the US, or Australia, or New Zealand — that’s not cheap.
Then there’s energy. Brewing uses a lot of electricity. And with energy bills jumping from £10–20K to £50K a month, it kills these smaller businesses.
If you can’t sell enough beer at a price people will pay, and your costs triple — that’s it. Game over.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, I speak to a lot of business owners like that. Their energy bills just skyrocket with no warning. You can’t run a business like that.
Martin Haley: Exactly. It’s not a business you go into to make millions. You’ve got to love it. That’s why the Transformers guy quitting was such a shame — he clearly loved what he was doing, and had found his ideal customer. You!
Darren Jamieson: I bought everything he made. I even kept the badges from the taps. The artwork was amazing.
[29:17]
Darren Jamieson: Your channel’s been going since 2020 — and I think you’ve got a couple hundred videos on there now?
Martin Haley: Must be more than that. I’ve been doing it since the first lockdown, and I reckon I’m averaging around 190 videos a year.
Darren Jamieson: Bloody hell. What’s your reach like now? And what are your plans — where do you want to take the channel?
Martin Haley: Long term? I’d love to make drinking beer on the internet my full-time job. That’s the dream.
It’s not easy. But it’s not impossible either. The channel’s grown steadily. You need 1,000 subscribers and enough watch hours to get monetised.
But here’s the thing — the revenue has dropped. It used to be around £5 per 1,000 views. Now it’s more like £2 per 1,000.
Darren Jamieson: Is that per view or per hours viewed?
Martin Haley: That’s per views. CPM — cost per thousand views. If you’re running ads on your channel, the going rate used to be £5, now it’s dropped.
But it depends on your content. If you’re talking about finance or business — like your BNI content — you’ll get higher-paying ads. If your audience is mostly UK-based, that helps too.
Mine’s about 90% UK.
But let’s face it, I’m reviewing beer — not selling insurance. So the ads are worth less.
[31:35]
Long-term though, I’d love to grow both the beer and music sides of the channel.
When I talk about beer, it’s just beer. When I talk about music, it’s just music. I’ve done band reviews, album rankings — and funnily enough, those get more views than my beer reviews.
So maybe I need to do more music content. I’ve got people who follow me just for the beer, and others who are there just for the music.
International audiences are more interested in the music side. The beer content is very UK-specific — local breweries, local bottle shops.
There are a couple of big beer channels. Craft Beer Channel, Real Ale Craft Beer — he just sits and reviews beer like I do.
He’s been doing it 10 years. He’s got over 76,000 subscribers. And during lockdown, he was making enough for it to be his full-time job.
Darren Jamieson: So it’s possible. You’ve just got to outdrink him.
Martin Haley: Exactly. Just got to drink more beer. Put the hours in.
[33:08]
Martin Haley: He releases three videos a day now — beer, food, anything. At some point, you start to worry, “Have I already said this about another beer?” It gets repetitive.
But people are watching and making buying decisions based on what I say.
I’ve had comments like, “Just picked that one up, drinking it while watching your review,” or “That sounds cracking — I’m going to buy it.”
So there’s a level of trust there. People like what I like, and that makes the reviews useful.
Darren Jamieson: Have you looked at affiliate opportunities with your reviews?
You’ve got loads of video content — which could easily be turned into blog posts with embedded videos and affiliate links to buy the beers.
Martin Haley: Yeah, I’ve done a bit of that — mostly with online bottle shops that have affiliate schemes. Most breweries don’t offer them. They want to keep all the margin they can.
But it’s something I’m definitely considering. Once I hit 4–5,000 subscribers and I’m getting 500–1,000 views per video, the volume will be there.
The obvious move is: I’ve got an audience who likes craft beer, so why not sell them craft beer?
If affiliate isn’t viable, maybe I just do it myself.
Darren Jamieson: Set up your own bottle shop?
Martin Haley: Yeah — it’s an option. There’s a new bottle shop near me in Bebington called Frost. It’s probably closer to you than me, actually.
They’ve only been going a year and they’re doing well — now opening a taproom.
Darren Jamieson: What’s the name again?
Martin Haley: Frost Bottle Shop. High Street, Bebington, Wirral.
They’re great. He’s partnered with a publican to set up a new taproom, and there’s a proper craft beer scene there now. You wouldn’t expect it — but the shop’s always busy.
He stocks a lot of German and UK craft beers, and his prices are good. Some places charge £7 a can — he’s more like £4.50.
I’m there pretty much once a week. A lot of my reviews come from beers I pick up there.
[37:09]
Darren Jamieson: Do you go to many beer festivals?
Martin Haley: Yeah, I’ve been to a few. They’re great — but chaotic.
I always go with the intention of filming or going live, but then I just get caught up drinking the beer. Next thing I know, the night’s gone and I haven’t recorded a thing.
I need to be better prepared — take a light, selfie stick, maybe wear a branded t-shirt, hand out cards or have QR codes.
I’ve even thought about sponsoring a festival magazine ad or something.
Darren Jamieson: Have people ever recognised you at one?
Martin Haley: Yeah — a few times. Someone will come up and go, “Hey, you’re Rocker’s Beer Review! I watch your channel.”
It’s weird. You get that little buzz — like, “Whoa, someone I don’t know actually watches me on the internet.”
I’m not famous, but it feels like it for a second.
There’s a whole craft beer YouTuber scene — people that go to the same festivals and sort of orbit each other.
A lot of channels started during lockdown. Some kept going, others fizzled out. It’s a tough thing to stay consistent with.
[39:10]
We used to do more live stuff — drinking and chatting online. A few different channels would join in, have a drink, talk about beer and life.
That’s died off a bit now that people are back in pubs. During lockdown, it was the only way to socialise — like the quizzes with your mates over Zoom.
Now people want the real thing again.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, makes sense. But there’s definitely still a place for that online community.
Martin Haley: There is. And a lot of people got into craft beer during lockdown — then discovered their mates’ pubs only served the usual suspects. So they seek out craft taprooms instead.
One of my favourite places in Chester is Bluestone. It’s tiny — if there are 15 people in there, it’s packed.
But it’s cosy, friendly, full of craft beer. Feels like someone’s living room.
Those kinds of places are popping up more and more now, which is great to see.
[41:04]
Darren Jamieson: So, outside of beer, you’re also a marketer — or marketeer, depending on which version you prefer.
How did you get started in that?
Martin Haley: I’ve worked in marketing since I left university. Didn’t do a degree in it, but my first proper role was with NatWest as a marketing graduate in 1995.
Did that for about three years, then got my CIM diploma in ’98. Back then, digital marketing wasn’t even a thing. The diploma was all about traditional channels — direct mail, print ads, TV, radio. No mention of the internet.
Since then, I’ve worked in various marketing-driven businesses. I ran an international property company for years.
I’m not a real estate professional or even a great salesperson, but I used marketing to generate leads and sell properties all over the world — Morocco, Cape Verde, Florida, Cyprus, Turkey, Spain.
[42:18]
When the credit crunch hit, the property side wobbled, so I pivoted into pure lead generation. We stopped relying on selling property and just sold the leads. That worked well.
Later, I started building mobile apps for restaurants and small businesses around Chester.
Actually, I think that’s when we first met — when I was doing apps.
Darren Jamieson: It was! Back in the app-building days.
Martin Haley: Yeah, I built a fair few — and then, when COVID hit, everything shifted again.
Now I work for an IT company called CapNet, based on the Wirral. I head up their marketing and we’ve launched a new division focused on helping our IT clients with marketing — because we were doing more for them than for ourselves.
So now we offer everything: websites, social media management, email marketing, SEO, PPC — all of it.
We act like an outsourced marketing department rather than just a project-based agency.
[43:56]
There are loads of businesses out there that did some marketing before COVID… and then just stopped. You check their social media and see regular posts up until March 2020 — then nothing.
They might say, “Oh yeah, we had someone who did that, but they left,” or “We just never got back to it.”
So we’re helping companies reboot that — getting them active again and making sure they’re on the right channels.
[44:29]
Martin Haley: A lot of businesses are open to getting back into marketing, but they’ve often had bad experiences — especially with web designers or agencies disappearing.
We hear it all the time: “We want to update our website, but we don’t know where the original developer is.”
People want to improve their marketing, but they don’t always know where to start.
There’s also way more noise now — so many channels. Everyone wants to jump on the next shiny thing.
People come to us asking, “Should we be on TikTok? Should we do a podcast?”
And I’m like, “Do you want to be on TikTok?”
They say, “Not really.”
So I say, “Then no — probably don’t.”
Darren Jamieson: Exactly. Everyone wants to chase the new thing, but it might not fit their business or audience.
Martin Haley: Right. Budgets are usually tight too. I spoke to a client recently and said, “What’s your turnover? You should be spending 5–10% of that on marketing.”
They looked stunned — they weren’t even spending 1%.
So there’s a lot of education involved.
It starts with understanding the business, who they’re trying to attract, and then building a strategy.
It’s not about doing what your mate down the pub said worked for him.
[46:59]
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, we get that all the time. “My mate says I should be on Instagram.”
But your audience isn’t on Instagram. They’re on LinkedIn.
So no — Instagram’s not going to work for you.
Martin Haley: Exactly. It’s about educating them on how marketing can work for them — not just throwing money at tactics they don’t understand.
Too many businesses go into marketing with no goal, no plan, no clue what they want to get out of it.
That’s when they say, “Oh, Facebook ads didn’t work,” or “SEO’s a scam.”
But the problem was never the platform. It was that the person running it didn’t check whether it would work for that specific business.
[47:54]
Darren Jamieson: We’ve had people come to us saying, “Can you do our Facebook ads?” And we say, “Yeah… but let’s back up first.”
We need to know if it’ll work for them.
But there are loads of freelancers and agencies out there who’ll say, “Sure, pay me and I’ll run your ads,” without ever checking if it’s a fit.
Then it doesn’t work, and the client thinks Facebook ads are rubbish — or SEO’s a con.
Martin Haley: Exactly. I meet people at networking events who know Facebook ads or SEO, but they don’t understand marketing.
They’ve learned how to push buttons, but not how to diagnose the right solution for a client.
I used to get it when I did mobile apps. People would come in saying, “I want an app.”
I’d ask, “What do you want it to do?”
They’d say, “I don’t know — I just want one.”
And I’d look at their website and say, “You need to fix that first before thinking about an app.”
[49:42]
A lot of them had terrible, non-responsive sites. But they were ready to spend thousands on an app without touching their website.
You’d drive people to the site from an app and lose them instantly.
It’s about understanding the foundations. There’s no point launching “sexy” marketing if your basics are broken.
Darren Jamieson: Couldn’t agree more.
We’ve had people ask us for SEO or lead gen, and their site is absolute dogsh*t. Like, properly unusable.
Sometimes built on Wix by their son. And because their friends say it looks nice, they think it’s fine.
They’re baffled when we say we won’t do SEO on it. But we know it won’t convert. And I’d rather not take someone’s money than waste it.
One guy on Cheshire Oaks had a Wix site built by his son. I told him we couldn’t do SEO unless he rebuilt it properly.
He was offended — but it was the truth.
[51:11]
Martin Haley: I’ve had similar. A client said, “We want to do PPC.” I looked at their site and said, “You’re generating traffic, but no one’s converting.”
And they said, “Well, we had 600 visitors — they must have clicked the wrong thing.”
No. That’s not how it works. Not every visitor is going to fill out a form.
If everyone who landed on your site converted, I’d be a magician. It’s not reality.
There are so many variables. Just driving traffic isn’t enough — your site has to do the heavy lifting.
People think if they’re spending £X on ads, they should get £X in revenue. But without a good site and strategy, it won’t happen.
Darren Jamieson: Exactly. They think every click means a sale. And when it doesn’t work, they blame the ad platform, not the strategy.
Martin Haley: And again — it’s about education.
People come in with preconceptions about what they think will work. They say, “My mate does this and he’s doing great,” but they don’t really understand what’s going on behind the scenes.
[53:06]
The most frustrating thing? A lot of people think marketing is just sales. That it’s one and the same.
They don’t realise it’s about strategy, planning, customer understanding — not just pushing something out and hoping.
I’ve been doing marketing for nearly 30 years and I still learn new things every day.
Clients without that background often come in thinking they’ve found the silver bullet — TikTok, a podcast, whatever — but they’re missing the bigger picture.
[54:02]
Martin Haley: Here’s a story from my app days.
People used to come to me constantly — “Can you make me an app?”
I’d ask, “What’s your business?”
They’d say, “Oh, I don’t have a business yet, just this idea. It’s going to be the next Facebook. Or the next eBay. Or Uber… for skateboards.”
They’d pitch these wild ideas, like a 3D scanner where you photograph your broken arm and it makes you a custom-fit plaster cast to be delivered in 24 hours.
I’d be sitting there going, “This is never going to work.”
[55:02]
And they always assumed people would just flock to the app.
I’d say, “If your app costs £10K to build, you’ll need to spend at least £100K marketing it.”
They couldn’t get their head around that. They thought a good idea was enough.
But a great idea with no audience is just… an idea.
Marketing is what makes or breaks it.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah, and most apps never get downloaded. It’s like 95–98% of them just sit there, dead.
And they always want you to build it for free and go 50/50.
I’ve had that loads of times — they pitch their “genius” idea, and I’m supposed to build it, fund it, launch it… and then split the profits.
Right.
Martin Haley: I’ve had that too. “We’ll go 50/50.”
So I’d ask, “What are you putting in?”
They’d say, “The idea.”
And I’d say, “If it’s that good and I’m doing all the work, I’ll just do it myself — I don’t need you.”
They’d say, “It’s going to go viral.” I’d ask, “How?”
They had no clue. “It just will.”
[56:55]
I’d ask if they’d even searched the App Store to see if it already existed.
“No, why would I?”
I’d show them a dozen identical apps already out there — with better budgets and bigger teams. They’d be stunned.
They usually came up with these ideas down the pub, after a few pints, scribbled on a beer mat. No research. No plan. Just vibes.
Darren Jamieson: We get those too. At least once a month, someone pitches us a 50/50 split on something they think is the next big thing.
Latest one was a financial advisor across the road. He wanted a lead gen site, built and paid for by us, and we’d split the profits.
Mate, do you know how competitive financial services is? PPC in that industry is brutal.
[58:19]
Darren Jamieson: If I were going to build a lead gen site for financial services, I wouldn’t do it for some tiny local guy — I’d do it for someone like St. James’s Place. Massive reach.
And by the way — I’m not going to do that. The PPC costs alone would melt your soul.
But… if you want to go 50/50 on making you the number one beer YouTuber on the internet?
Martin Haley: Ah, now that’s a deal. I’ll give you half of the £22.50 I make a month.
Darren Jamieson: All I’ve got to do is buy you some beer, and you’ll drink it on camera?
Martin Haley: Exactly. You fund the beer, I’ll film it, and I’ll even wear an Engage Web t-shirt if you want.
We’ve got ourselves a business model.
Darren Jamieson: Mate, I feel like I need a beer now just listening to this. But not if you’re driving. If you’re listening in your car, don’t do that — unless you’re the passenger. Actually no, still don’t do it. That’s illegal.
[1:00:48]
Martin, I’ll let you go. There’s beer in your fridge and the internet is waiting.
Before you go — if someone listening wants to work with you on marketing, or just wants to watch you drink beer online — how do they find you?
Martin Haley: YouTube — just search Rocker’s Beer Review. You’ll see my smiling face on all the thumbnails.
And for marketing, my agency is CapNet Marketing — based in Birkenhead on the Wirral. Google us, you’ll find us.
Darren Jamieson: Brilliant. It’s been a pleasure speaking to you.
Final question — what beer would you recommend for someone who loves IPAs? Maybe a double IPA for the weekend?
Martin Haley: Tough question. OK — supermarket recommendation first: Sainsbury’s. Look for “Just Two Bodies” by Polly’s.
It’s a pale ale, 5.5%, sessionable, and part of their 4-for-3 offer. Easily the best beer in the supermarket right now.
Double IPA? Look for “Putty” by Verdant. It’s their annual hype beer — released in January.
It flies off the shelves. Beer Heroes in Chester had some, so you might get lucky.
If you’re listening in summer or later in the year, don’t worry — it’ll be back next January.
Darren Jamieson: Putty. Got it. I’ll look out for it.
Martin, cheers for coming on. Let’s have that beer.
Martin Haley: Cheers Darren. Thanks, mate.
