Darren Jamieson: [00:25] On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking to Ann Currie, who went from being a solicitor to renting out a camper van. Now, that’s what I call a career change. How do you leave the world of legal and law to renting out camper vans to people going on their holibobs?
I’m going to speak to Ann about how that happened, why she made that decision, and what she’s doing now, but most importantly, what she learned from marketing in terms of promoting her own business, renting out campers.
And when you first started, you were in a very different career to what you’re in right now, weren’t you? You were a solicitor. What made you want to join the legal profession originally?
Ann Currie: [01:07] That’s a good question, because I don’t really know where that spark came from, to be quite honest.
So to take you back, 10-year-old Ann up to probably 16 or 17-year-old Ann wanted to be a writer and a journalist. And 10-year-old Ann went as far as writing a little novel in a jungle, you know, like a, we call them “jotters” in Scotland, little notebooks basically.
And so I wrote this novel at the age of 10. It’s a very short novel. It was only one chapter, but the whole intention was there. But a novel about a girl that played tennis and was very good. And I have no idea, because I didn’t play tennis as a kid.
Darren: [01:57] So you didn’t play tennis. You just wrote a novel about a girl that played tennis?
Ann: [02:03] Yeah. Didn’t know.
Darren: [02:09] So did you have ambitions to play tennis yourself?
Ann: [02:14] Say that again, sorry.
Darren: [02:14] Did you have any ambitions to play tennis yourself?
Ann: [02:18] No, none at all. I think we were just a bit seduced by, we still have, my best friend and I at the time used to have all these tennis matches just out in the street, being, you know, in Glasgow, like the upper part of Glasgow, where we would just make up our own games.
So, and then I wanted to, I started my university degree studying English, but the good thing is in Scotland is that you get a chance to do like a general arts degree. So I actually managed to do English, history, politics, psychology, and sociology.
Which then led me to think, well actually, English is not really that useful, analysing Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness when you don’t even have a clue what the novel’s all about. Especially history and politics, because it’s obviously slightly more analytical, and politics is obviously very grounded in current day society.
There’s a lot of stuff in the news today about politicians saying that it’s a bit of a waste of time doing arts degrees like English and history. We should be doing trades. I disagree with that permanently, but that’s what’s going on at the moment, isn’t it?
Darren: [03:43] There’s a lot of that, and some of it I could see where they’re coming from, in the sense that if you’re paying for a degree, you might want to do something that’s a bit more vocational. But equally, how do you get to see these degrees teach you how to be a critical thinker, in my opinion.
Ann: [04:03] They don’t want those, do they? They don’t want the public to be critically thinking.
Darren: [04:06] No. Exactly.
Ann: [04:10] Problem. Exactly. And I think it’s that kind of, if we tell them what politics is all about, they might actually vote sensibly. We don’t want that.
Darren: [04:16] No, we don’t want that.
Ann: [04:22] So yeah, history and politics slightly more critical. I’ve gone off the path a bit, but basically I did want to be a writer and a journalist, and that ambition was quite firmly held right up until university.
And then I just somehow had a bit of a crisis of confidence about being a journalist. Because the background to that is that I am hard of hearing and that I wear hearing aids. And suddenly I just kind of thought, could I cope with working in a busy newsroom? Could I cope with going to news conferences?
I suppose my idea of journalism was covering crime. So the idea of going to like a big police conference and not hearing what was going on. So I think that’s where that came from, with hindsight.
And then I had the slight misfortune, it’s only a slight misfortune in the scheme of things, to graduate in 1991 when there was a recession on, and that meant it was harder to get a graduate job.
So if we’re talking about careers, my very first career was actually in the job centre, believe it or not. I worked as a benefits officer in the job centre. Not the best of jobs, but it did teach me a lot about human behaviour, and just that kind of people that didn’t have jobs that were really on the edge of poverty. It was quite humbling.
Darren: [05:55] Is this job centre in Glasgow?
Ann: [05:59] It was actually, believe it or not, in Chippenham in Rochedale… sorry, in Wiltshire. My husband now, but at the time he’s my boyfriend, and he had a job in Chippenham and I didn’t have a job anywhere. So I said, well, sod it, I’m coming down.
And so I ended up at the job centre in Chippenham, which was quite a culture shock, not least because the accent is totally different. That’s another story.
Darren: [06:28] Well, you’ve not lost your accent at all, have you?
Ann: [06:31] No, I haven’t. And I certainly didn’t pick up a West Country one, did I?
Darren: [06:34] You have not. You’ve held on to that Glaswegian.
Ann: [06:40] So, and I think from there it’s probably my husband. Why don’t you think about a law degree? So I went back to night school and did a law A level. And I actually found it quite interesting.
It comes back to the concepts of politics, history, it’s kind of intertwined. There’s a lot of sociology in it, there’s a lot of history, legal history, how the legal system came to be, politics in how we organise society. So I did find it quite interesting.
I still got an A in the A level, which suggests I did have some aptitude for it. So I went ahead, I went back to university to do the conversion course. So it’s a one-year conversion course followed by the one-year professional course that everybody does.
And qualified as a lawyer in 1998. And by this time we’d moved up to Merseyside, which is obviously where we are now. In 1995 I managed to get a training contract and qualify in 1998.
And that was me up until 2017. Almost 20 years of being a lawyer.
Darren: [07:59] So what sort of law were you doing then? What kind of clients did you work with?
Ann: [08:06] I did a mixture. I started at a firm where I did a mixture of personal injury, professional negligence, and medical negligence. And I really enjoyed that mix of it.
And I enjoyed the negligence because, idealistic as it sounds, I did set out to help people. That’s what I wanted to do. And that’s what I thought going into the law would enable me to do. I’m going to help people navigate a system that actually, it’s not impenetrable, but it can be difficult. I don’t know if it’s intentionally made like that.
Darren: [08:42] You set out to make it hard for people to understand, you think so?
Ann: [08:45] I think so. Sometimes, if you were being cynical, you’d tell it’s made like that so the lawyers can make the money. And this is coming from a former lawyer saying this.
So I did a mixture of those three things. I did that mainly for claim initially, and then I actually got headhunted to work for the defendant side for quite a bit in Liverpool, for the insurance companies. So poacher turned gamekeeper, whatever the expression is.
Darren: [09:24] How did that make you feel then, when you’re originally helping people get money that they’re possibly very overdue because of something that’s happened to them, to then defending people that have perhaps done something very wrong?
Ann: [09:38] I don’t know if I felt there was something wrong, because then it was just a case, in my mind, it just switched to, this is a problem to be solved.
Right, okay, so they’re saying this, we say this. More often than not in negligence claims, the claimant’s going to win unless there’s some fraud there. So it’s more a case of just trying to negotiate a decent settlement that, in my view, satisfies everybody.
That’s possibly where I didn’t go down too well in the law, because it’s kind of, oh no, you need to get as much as you can for us. I said, that’s really not how I want to work. I want to work on a basis that if we can get to a win win, why wouldn’t we? Everybody goes away at least a little bit satisfied.
Because if you’ve already admitted liability, this is just about working out how much is due really.
It’s just a tough profession as well because I think there’s a very strong ethic about billing, working long hours, and that really wasn’t conducive to having children.
I had my children in 2006. I had twins. And I did find that really hard.
I remember it quite clearly actually. I worked for something like 10 or 11 hours, and my husband was obviously at home with the kids, and I fell asleep on the train on the way home and ended up in the wrong station. And it was just one of those moments where I go, God, what is this? Why am I doing this? It’s just not what I really want out of life.
If you have children, just to not see them.
Darren: [11:33] So you realise the work life balance isn’t there and perhaps you readjust what you’re doing.
Ann: [11:40] It’s a shame because I did enjoy the work. I did actually enjoy the day to day work. I enjoyed coming in, there was, oh look, there’s a new file, right.
There was nothing better to me than getting a new file and suddenly working it all out. This has happened and that’s happened and they’ve said this and we’ve said that, and we just need to try and get to that resolution. I always really enjoyed that.
Darren: [12:02] I guess every file then, it’s a story, isn’t it? There’s a narrative of something that’s happened. So it would be interesting.
Ann: [12:08] Yeah, definitely. And it’s kind of, why did someone do that?
So I think that it was at that point, I think it was 2010, I took a sabbatical just for a bit of a breather really. Kids are a bit older. So I took their first year at school off just to get a bit of a breather, maybe to think about, is this really what I wanted to do.
So the doubts have always been there probably. They’ve always been there. But eventually the money pulls you back in, which with hindsight is not something that I should have let myself be sucked back in. But it did suck me back in because obviously it’s important for a certain degree of security.
And I’m not sitting here saying I really want the Mercedes on the drive or the big house. That’s not me at all. But it does give you a certain security.
I was actually listening to the High Performance Podcast, has become a recent favourite. I didn’t think it would be my thing, but it actually had a really interesting episode with Rick Astley of all people.
Darren: [13:23] Oh yeah.
Ann: [13:24] It was really interesting, because he came from a fairly similar northern, well he’s from the outskirts of Warrington, northern upbringing, working class upbringing, which like mine, and he said once I made some money out of Never Gonna Give You Up, I felt like I had enough security.
He used the word security and that was almost like a light bulb moment for me. Because it was kind of, yes, that’s what the money means. It doesn’t mean the money as such. It just means security to me. It means that kind of not having to worry about it.
So yeah, that was interesting. I suppose that’s why I kept ricocheting back, is what I’m trying to say. It would give you that security.
And then I kind of pushed on a bit through some really quite stressful jobs. There was far too much to be done. The bosses were not particularly great after that.
And then finally in 2017 I actually cracked and I had burnout and stress. I got signed off sick, and that’s the first time in my life I’ve ever been signed off sick due to stress.
And it was just such a relief, to be quite honest, which just shows you how bad it was. Because up to that point I’d have been horrified about being signed off for stress, but I just remember coming home and sleeping all day, or sleeping for a couple of hours and then waking up and going, oh thank God, and that was it.
So I suppose we come back to what people should take away from it. If you’ve got the doubts like me for a few years before, don’t get to that point. Don’t. Just don’t get to that point.
Explore them and act on them and work on them. Maybe even go and see a coach or a therapist or someone to work through, because the burnout and the stress and the breakdown was not something that I’d recommend.
Obviously it’s set me on a nice path now and I’m happy, but at the time, no.
Darren: [15:52] That’s at the time though. How you say it would have been better if you’d spoken to a therapist or a coach and you’d not ended up burning out with stress, but how would you have known that was happening? Were there signs building up to it?
Ann: [16:05] But the point was that in 2010 I did a counselling course. I’d had some therapy myself back in 2010 because the work situation. I didn’t come away from the therapy with very many answers.
What’s also interesting was when I was thinking about this, because obviously my story is one of career changing, and I actually checked when I bought this book. I bought a book in 2013 and it’s called What Should I Do With My Life?
I don’t know if we can maybe put this in the notes for people afterwards if there’s anybody listening to this or watching this that wants to maybe learn from it or is thinking about a similar change.
It’s Paul Bronson, which is the weirdest name, but he’s a very respected American journalist. And this book, it’s the weirdest book because it’s just a collection of tales of people that were looking for their purpose in life.
It’s not even about changing careers. But there’s something about it that sung to me. It was like, what should I do with my life? Well, yeah, I want to find out what I want to do with my life, because maybe this isn’t for me.
And it’s just a collection of tales. I remember finishing it and thinking, that didn’t tell me what to do. And that’s obviously not the whole point of the book.
I went back to it at some point later and I understood then it was just a collection of tales for you to reflect on. So it’s definitely a book that I’d recommend even if you’re not thinking about changing careers.
It was actually some really interesting people in it. If you’re interested in people like I am and people’s tales, then it’s definitely worth reading.
Darren: [18:09] So on the day you were signed off and you went home, how did that day start? You’d gone into work?
Ann: [18:14] I’d actually gone into work, and a normal day.
Darren: [18:20] So it was like a normal day. Normal day, you’d gone into work.
Ann: [18:26] Sadly, I can’t remember the exact trigger. I know it was the 4th of July 2017, but I can’t remember the exact trigger. But I think I just sat there in tears and said, I can’t do this.
So I got up and walked out. I went straight to the doctor and got an appointment and got signed off.
I didn’t really feel better until September, and that was when I finally handed in my notice and said, this isn’t for me. I’m not going back to the law.
And I went to the job centre again, coming full circle.
But at that point, there was no way I could ever work for anyone ever again. I was so furious about it. It’s unbelievable, looking back on it. I was, I’m never working for anybody again. I need to set up my own business because I don’t want to answer to anyone. That was just so awful. I can’t do that.
And up until that point, I think what’s interesting is that I would never have done that. That would have been far too risky for me as an individual. In terms of talking about your values and how you approach life, I’ve always seen entrepreneurship, oh no, that’s not for me. That really isn’t for me. I can’t afford that risk.
Darren: [19:58] You don’t typically get a lot of lawyers that go out and start their own business, because lawyers are often quite risk averse.
Ann: [20:04] Well, is it part of the nature of their job, nature of their training, they don’t take risk. But I thought, do you know what, I’m going to leave law behind. I’m going to set up a camper van business.
Darren: [20:16] Yes. Which is probably as far stretched from lawyer that you could possibly imagine. What possessed you to want to do that?
Ann: [20:27] Well, it comes back to this. I cannot imagine working for anyone else. I really couldn’t imagine working for anybody else.
But we had the camper van and we weren’t using it as much because by 2017 my children were 11, 12 and doing a lot more stuff at the weekends. So we weren’t going away in it the same way.
And so I had the idea, well, should we sell it and use the money to live off while I decide what to do? And I actually thought it’d be a better idea to try and rent it out so we could keep it, because we loved it. Absolutely adored it.
I loved what it represented in terms of freedom, because while I was so stressed, that was the one place where I could sleep. We’d go away for the weekend and I’d sleep for 12 hours, whereas at home I couldn’t sleep. I was insomnia central then.
Darren: [21:24] So it kind of became your happy place then.
Ann: [21:30] It was very much a happy place. So I wasn’t really ready to part with it at all.
So we came up with the idea that we would rent it, and that would be like a springboard for me to learn all the skills about websites, social media, marketing, and it would just be then being able to keep it and not working for anyone else.
So that was actually all quite useful. And to take that a step back, you probably think straight into website, straight into social media.
I actually had a blog prior to that, documenting all my running, triathlon, open water swimming. So I’d already got a blog. I was a little bit used to WordPress. I’m not saying I was proficient like you guys, but I was proficient enough and knew my way around enough for a website.
And I’d done social media obviously to promote the blog, and had also worked on the social media for the last job that I was in. So there was already some background there that enabled me to take that step.
And actually, I’ll tell you this, because this is the power of suggestion. My cousin who lives in America, but my parents were Irish, he told me, and I didn’t actually know this because my grandparents all died before I was born, that my grandparents on my dad’s side owned quite a successful agricultural shop. The entire district, it was the place to go.
I was like, oh, so they were entrepreneurs.
Darren: [23:24] Right. Okay. And it’s in the blood then. You just didn’t know.
Ann: [23:30] Well, that’s it. You might think that sounds a bit ridiculous, but it just gave me a perspective shift. That’s all it was. It was kind of like, well, actually, if my relatives can do that, then why not me?
So yeah, so that’s how it all came about, and how it just seemed to feed into then the writing that I enjoyed doing, because social media is about writing.
It’s changing obviously. It’s a lot more about videos now, but back in 2017, it was a lot more about, yes, the image.
Darren: [24:02] How did you find renting out the camper van then? Because I know a few, you and I both know a couple of people with camper vans, and there’s one guy in particular I think we both know, Michael Roberts, who loves his camper van. And if he could marry that camper van, I think he would. The idea of him renting that camper van out to somebody else would be like loaning his daughter to somebody for the evening. It’s just not something that’s going to happen.
So how did it feel, you giving somewhere where you’ve already said it’s your happy place, you were able to sleep in it and get a full 12 hours undisturbed sleep, giving it to a complete stranger?
Ann: [24:39] It was tough. There’s no doubt about it. It was tough initially. And then eventually we came to see it as the business. It was the business.
And a cautionary tale, if you are thinking about a camper van, then be prepared for quite a lot of damage because it happens a lot. It happens a lot.
And people aren’t malicious. There’s only one or two people that were a bit careless, as in, don’t care how it got damaged. Most people are okay about it, but it’s just life, isn’t it?
And you just have to think, it’s a hunk of metal. So it might have been my happy place, but that’s worked for me then. That’s not where I am now. It’s now serving me in a different way. It’s kind of, this is part of the business. It’s a godsend. It’s done this for me, now it’s doing this for me, what more can you ask for really? So that’s why you have insurance.
And I’ve got to be honest, as you know now, I’m not doing that anymore. And if I’m being really honest, the damage side of things wore us down a little bit. It did get a bit wearing.
Oh yeah, sorry, we damaged it, and then you’re repairing it again and again and again. And also being tied to the house. It’s kind of the irony of being in a business that involves travelling and you can’t go travelling still.
So for those two reasons, that’s why we stopped that last year. 24 March 2024, I stopped. So we don’t have a camper van now, which I’m quite sad about. But I think we also needed a break from owning it. We needed a break now from owning it so that we can put that behind us and then eventually hopefully we’ll get another one in the future.
Darren: [26:40] So you will get another one. You will replace it.
Ann: [26:43] I think so in the future. We just need a bit of a break. This is just life’s twists and turns, isn’t it? The children are not children anymore. Still my children, I guess. But they’re twins, as I said, so they’re at university now. So everything’s a bit more expensive. But we just, you know, compromise on maybe we’ll get another one in the future.
Darren: [27:09] So what was the worst damage that it had when it came back?
Ann: [27:17] The weirdest, I’ll tell you the weirdest one, because there’s quite a few. Well, there’s quite a few.
Always the pop top roof always seemed to be the flash point, because the roof where you push it up, you have it down when you’re driving, push it up to give you the head room. That’s often got quite damaged.
The weirdest one that caused the most damage, but in consequence it didn’t correspond with the actual damage. Someone put their phone on the air vents. They brought one of these things where you stick your phone on and you can put it on the air vent so you can see it.
Darren: [27:59] Yeah, I’ve got one myself in my car.
Ann: [28:05] So it broke the vent. Which you’d think, oh well, just pull that out and put it in again. Maybe time for a new vent.
We had to have a whole new dashboard.
Darren: [28:17] No.
Ann: [28:17] Because they couldn’t fix it that way, and they explained why, and I can’t remember the detail, but it was more like 200 as opposed to 30. My initial thought would be 30 or 40.
So yeah, so that wasn’t great really. I felt a bit sorry for the person, because obviously they had to pay. I did feel a bit sorry for the person on that one.
But overall I enjoyed it. I don’t want to paint, I don’t want to leave that with a really negative picture, because compared to the law it was a doddle.
Darren: [28:53] And less stress, I imagine, as well.
Ann: [29:01] A lot less stress. There was obviously a bit of stress involved. And the worst bit was someone bringing it back damaged but it’s going out again the same day.
So you having to somehow either try to fix it quickly or you’d have to offer something else or you’d have to give a discount, blah blah blah. But what I enjoyed the most was people coming, and I’ve always wanted to do this. I’ve always wanted to be in a camper van and now I’m living the dream.
And people were just so happy and excited. And then they come back and they had a great time. If they damaged it, then that’s not so good. But generally, I’m making it sound like everybody damaged it. Not everybody damaged it.
But the people that came back were having a great time. I just loved that. It was kind of like helping people facilitate their dreams. So I did enjoy that aspect of it.
Darren: [29:59] It was a Volkswagen T5, wasn’t it? I know Michael Roberts’s Volkswagen is a T4. From what he puts on social media, you can damage that by looking at it. I presume yours was a bit more robust than his.
Ann: [30:09] Well, mine was newer than his. And then I replaced. So basically at one point I did have two vans and I was managing the bookings for somebody else’s. So I had three on the website.
And then I sold, they were getting a wee bit tired with all the, they were getting a wee bit tired, so I sold them both and bought one brand new one.
So yes, that was a little bit more robust. And I would love to tell you that having a new one would mean it wouldn’t get damaged. I don’t know how naive I was.
So yeah. But yeah, I think Michael’s is just a bit older.
Darren: [31:01] Yeah, just a bit older, I think. But you’ve got to admire the love and care you’ve put into that van. He’s had it rebuilt a couple of times.
If anyone’s listening to this thinking, I would like to rent my own camper van out, what are the top three things you’d say they should look out for before they do anything?
Ann: [31:21] Make sure you’ve got a really good rental agreement, a good contract, lots of good terms and conditions. Obviously, I did draft my own. I didn’t have to pay for a lawyer to do that. But, you know, if you haven’t got a friendly lawyer to look over it for you, then I would unfortunately recommend that you spend some money getting that done, and make sure those terms and conditions are really watertight.
I would also make sure that you do a really good inspection before and after. I had an inspection sheet and I would mark it all up.
Really, I would mark it all up, and not too bad, I can’t hear anything. Oh, okay, the dog’s gone a bit ballistic. But anyway, the sheet, just make sure it’s all really marked up.
I think you can get a lot more now that are apps, and you can probably, and I would video and photo occasionally as well, and just mark it all up and make sure everybody was happy that was the pre existing damage.
And then crucially when it comes back, make sure that you inspect it thoroughly.
It always feels a bit awkward, and people, as I said, people coming back, I really loved it, and then you go, I need to just check, and it really puts, it’s a bit of a mood hoover shall we say, but you really need to do it. I didn’t do it once and I got caught out.
So yeah, that would be the three top tips. And unfortunately they’re really boring, but they’ll save you money, and it might save you a little bit of heartache as well. So yeah, that would be the top.
Darren: [33:21] And it’s the same as well, I think, from the person renting the van side as well. They should be doing a look around and inspecting as well. Same as when you get a rental car.
Because there’s no point bringing the car back to Enterprise, or whatever the company, and they say there’s this scratch on the side and it was there before, but you’ve got no proof.
Ann: [33:33] Exactly. And you know, I like to treat people as I wanted to be treated. So one of my values is integrity. So I would never ever try to pull a fast one.
But as you say, not everybody’s like that. And I think a lot of these hire companies, the hire doesn’t make them any money. It’s trying to recover the damage. It’s trying to say that the tyres were, you know, better. You know what I mean?
Darren: [34:04] Yeah. Last time I rented a car, it was from Enterprise, and I don’t want to slate them off or anything, but the guy giving me the car probably asked me four or five times about the insurance for the car that they wanted me to take out, saying that if I didn’t take that insurance out, and it had so much of a scratch on it, it was like £500 excess, it’s going to cost me.
If somebody clips the wing mirror, it’s going to cost you £500. It’s only £120 for the insurance. I don’t want it. I don’t need it. I don’t need it.
And they were so forceful with it. That’s clearly where they make their money. That’s their upsell. That’s where they get their commission, getting people to buy those little extras. And it was really off putting. Made me not want to do it again.
Ann: [34:50] No. I just had a, I was lucky enough to have it, just a single hire policy. Single hire policy it was called. So I didn’t even have to go to the insurance company every time. I just did the hire.
I just had to do all the, it’s like a money laundering check. I had to check you are who you say you are. I had to check your DVLA. But that bit was all fine really. So it’s not for the pain, to be honest.
If you were not a lawyer and reading all the terms and conditions, you’re like, oh my goodness, what am I getting myself into here? It does sound quite frightening.
But bear in mind that those terms and conditions are covering worst case scenario. So just, it’s not always like that. But you need it because it happens. So you need to be careful with it really.
But as you say, the camper van’s gone now until you decide to get another one in the future.
Ann: [35:51] In the future. Just for me, just for me, when you’re ready to quieten down.
But you are now working in events.
Darren: [36:05] Yeah.
Ann: [36:05] Sort of events, to be honest. I kind of consider myself, and I know this is, to purists like yourselves, I know you’ve obviously got your digital marketing agency and I have been to you guys for help. You are very good. Shout out to Emily and your team.
Darren: [36:31] Let’s not shout out to Emily too much. She gets enough praise.
Ann: [36:37] But I know it overlaps and they are different disciplines, but I kind of see myself as marketing and communications now.
And I kind of see myself as doing that for smaller businesses that don’t have the budget, basically.
So it’s coloured out because my major client is an events company in Scotland. So you are right, I’m in events, but I don’t see myself as specialising in that, I guess. But it is where a bit of expertise has arisen really.
Darren: [37:17] So what is it you do for them then, in terms of marketing?
Ann: [37:24] It did start as purely being social media, social media writer and manager, but now I’m actually doing the marketing plan.
We’re looking at how do we get sponsorship. How do we manage all, I do all the communications. So there’s always an athlete guide that goes out. I’m not saying I write it, Richard Rice, who’s the chap, event director, but I make sure that it’s all okay and it fits the brand.
I’m quite interested in branding, to make sure that things fit the brand and the brand voice.
So it’s a kind of wrap around the communications. Obviously comes in then with, I have written a couple of press releases. As I say, tried to make sure. I’ve written some policies. We wrote an accessibility policy, which we didn’t have. You know, in terms of adapting some, making sure that people with disabilities can access events, particularly swimming events.
So there’s all of that. And then the marketing is just, how do we get more sales? That’s it, in a nutshell.
So then obviously social media, the writing, just everything really in terms of getting that message out.
Darren: [38:46] In terms of getting that message out, you said how do we get more sales. What have you found to be the most effective that you’ve done for them, or they’ve put into practice?
Ann: [38:57] I’m just not going to sell myself very well here, but I think sometimes it is just about the reputation of the events, to be quite honest.
It’s almost like their friends are saying, oh, I did the Ghost Swim event and it was amazing.
So it’s just trying to convey that. Just trying to convey that it’s a serious brand. We’ve actually grown it quite a lot now.
When I started, I think I started working with it back in 21, just after the pandemic. I can’t remember the exact figures, but at Loch Lomond, which is what we call the flagship swim, I think there was about 600 or 700 swimmers, and this year we had 1,100, or just about.
So yeah, we’ve just, and I think it’s just constant, if I’m going to do myself a favour, it’s just that, like everything in life, consistency.
It’s consistency of posting, consistency of being on, making sure the website’s up to date, it looks good, the social media’s got the messages going out all the time.
We don’t have to be viral all the time, but you have to have good information, consistent branding, nice messages, great photos, which we’ve always got because we have got a great photographer.
And I’m lucky enough now to have four years of great photographs to call on. And just, yeah, I suppose it’s just that consistency really.
Darren: [40:37] Photographs is important, isn’t it? So much easier to do social media and any sort of marketing if you’ve got great photographic images from the client themselves.
Ann: [40:47] Definitely. And I think that this would be interesting to have this chat with you and see what you think, because there’s a lot of stuff in the media recently about, well is social media dead?
Because, you know, are we actually, are we actually using it as a social media?
So if you go on to Facebook, for example, probably only 10% if that of the feed is from your friends, and most of it’s either adverts or BBC One plugging their show, or the latest music artists plugging their singles, and it’s become much more of a kind of, almost like an entertainment platform.
And that does make it harder for smaller brands that don’t have the budget to compete with really.
So it’s a case of keeping up with it. So there’s a lot more scope now. We do have videos. I do try and get videos and I try and put the amazing photos that we’ve got together as a slideshow to make it a video in a reel.
But it is tricky, and we just have to keep watching because social media has changed quite dramatically even since 2017.
I’m pretty sure it was, people were reading it, and now they don’t want to read it, they want to continually, evolving social media.
Darren: [42:11] We find many businesses are using Facebook to promote their business by posting organic content on their pages. And for the most part it’s a complete waste of time because people aren’t seeing it, people aren’t reading it, people aren’t interacting with it.
And depending on the age demographic they’re going for as well, if it’s a younger demographic, then it’s even more of a waste of time because Facebook isn’t used by people that age. They need to be using things like Snapchat and TikTok for that because that’s what people are using.
And people are going to TikTok and searching now. Google isn’t being searched as much. It’s like for the first time in history, Google searches are down because people are searching on TikTok, they’re searching on Instagram, they’re searching on AI, they’re searching on ChatGPT, they’re searching on Claude.
That’s where they’re looking for things. And if businesses aren’t adapting to that and they’re not using AI, if not to create content themselves, which I think is a bad use of AI, they should be the ones that are appearing in the searches when people are searching for it.
But this over reliance on Facebook and doing what we’ve always done. Oh, we’ll go to Facebook and we’ll post something on our Facebook page. That’s great. Probably four or five people will see it. It’s a waste of time.
Ann: [43:25] If I can buck the trend a little bit, on this swim page in particular, we’re doing all right there because we actually have a real core of engaged fans.
Darren: [43:36] Is it a page or is it a group?
Ann: [43:40] It’s a page. It’s actually a big page, but I think because people come out of the events with a, you know, open water swimming does give you a buzz. It’s an adrenaline.
Darren: [43:49] Oh yeah. If you’re posting pictures on it and it’s got people in it that are following the page, then yeah, they’ll engage with it and they’ll tag themselves in or they’ll share it with their friends because it’s them. That’s a great way to do it.
We’ve got a client that does race meets. So they do track days, they do marathons, that sort of thing, and they’re posting images all the time of all the athletes that are taking part in it and they’re being shared by them because it’s pictures of them.
That’s fine. That’s a good use of it.
It’s when other businesses do it that don’t have that community aspect and they’re just posting stuff on their page thinking this is going to get me business, this is going to get me enquiries. It really isn’t, you know, unless you’ve got that big community aspect, which obviously the open water racing has, then it’s not going to work for most people.
Ann: [44:41] Yeah. I know it is interesting. So it’s just, it’s just evolving.
So I suppose what I’m saying is maybe in my career, I’ve gone from civil servant to lawyer to entrepreneur, camper owner, business owner, to marketing, communications.
And can I just touch on this point because this was something that exercised me quite a bit for probably between 2019 and 2022.
I kept toying with the idea of getting a marketing qualification because obviously having come from, I actually have been quite academic, I was actually quite good at school, I don’t mind admitting. I love school and I loved learning and I loved books and, you know, you love a qualification, you love a certificate.
Darren: [45:19] You love a certificate.
Ann: [45:24] I do. Yes.
Darren: [45:24] You probably got me in one, darling.
Ann: [45:30] I love being told I’m great, but doesn’t everyone.
So I toyed with the idea of getting a marketing qualification and I was looking at the best ones, you know, to do an online part time qualification. I mean, you just kind of get lost in that, oh, is this really a good qualification to get? How do I know if this is any good? Basically, without going back to uni.
So I ended up on events and didn’t do anything about it. And I was talking to a friend in my running group and she said, you’re probably equating getting a qualification with being a lawyer because obviously you do have to have a qualification for that.
But if you’ve got the experience, what does it matter? And I said, you know what, you’re so right. Because in this day and age as well, you’ve got YouTube to help you through. Canva, for people that don’t know, this is the graphic design. Most people probably do know and have heard of Canva, but graphic design.
I’m not artistically inclined at all. It’s the one subjective skill that I feel, everything else I can feel at, and I feel art.
I learned to use Canva by just sitting on YouTube. There’s so much stuff out there, isn’t there?
So I think again, I take for anybody listening to this, career change, you don’t necessarily need a qualification. It may be desirable, and I’m not saying I wouldn’t do something in the future, but I don’t think that you need it.
And here’s an interesting thing as well. I signed up last year to do, because my other strength is the running group that I’ve got, I have to mention them otherwise they’ll go a bit nuts if I don’t mention them.
But I signed up for a strength and conditioning course because that’s the big thing at the moment in fitness and it does help obviously to be stronger and try and prevent some injuries while you’re running.
And I signed up for that last year but realised quite quickly that that’s nothing without the experience of actually doing it.
So that’s for me, that’s a lesson, and I thought maybe I could pass it on, that you don’t always need the qualification, and actually experience is just as important.
Darren: [47:50] I would agree. You don’t need qualifications unless it’s something you personally want to do because you want to have it for yourself, because it’s something you want to see whether you can get it. You certainly don’t need it.
My nephew went to university and did, I think it was a computer science degree, but he dropped out in the second year because he thought this is a waste of my time.
He’s started a business in SharePoint for companies like NatWest, and one of the big holiday booking companies. He built the whole basket for them. He then sold that business, he’s got something like one and a half million.
He’s now in Chicago and he’s setting up another business for that same company for America, and he dropped out of university, so he got a degree.
So yeah, you don’t need a degree to be successful, you don’t need a degree to say that you’re good at it.
When we’re recruiting for people, for example, people coming with degrees, just because they got degrees doesn’t mean they’re any good at what they do. It’s what have they done on their own back.
What websites have they built? What marketing have they done? What social media have they done?
It’s all very well coming in, oh, I’ve done a degree in computer science with a module on web design, I’m qualified to be a web designer. What websites have you built? Oh, well, none because we didn’t do any on our course. Well, then you’re clearly not interested, are you? It’s clearly not for you.
So yeah, unless you physically want that certificate to stick on the wall, and if you do, that’s fine. Some people love a certificate.
But you don’t need it. It’s not going to teach you anything really that you can’t get from your own experience and from online.
Ann: [50:02] Yeah, definitely. So I just thought that might help people if they’re thinking, given that my story is about career change and I’ve already done one, two, three, possibly more.
There’s still, I’ve still got another 12 working years so who knows.
Darren: [50:18] So what’s the next career change that you’re going to do?
Ann: [50:23] I don’t know. I’m just watching social media now with interest because if that changes then who knows what’s next really.
So I think bringing it back to where we came in with 10-year-old, she really wants me to be a writer.
And I think, to get the emotional, she does want me to be a writer, and she does owe it to her to explore that a bit more. I don’t know where that’s going to take me. I think I need to get another book.
Darren: [50:54] You still have that book that you wrote?
Ann: [50:59] No, I don’t unfortunately. My mum was a terrible one for throwing things away.
Darren: [51:06] Never throw stuff away.
Ann: [51:12] I know. So I don’t have it. I can picture it though and I can picture all the time I spent writing it.
So I think the first step must be to get a blog going again. And I’m going to state this on here so I actually do do it.
Perhaps get a Substack going and just get writing.
I think I don’t quite know, there is an element of time. I am already quite busy.
It’s quite interesting as well because everybody’s going on about having a plan and a five year plan and this and you tell me to have a website and I don’t even have a website.
But the work has come in. I have had enough work to keep me going. This year has been my most successful.
So I think also you don’t always need a plan. You just maybe need to keep your head down.
Darren: [52:00] Speaking of not writing a plan, you mentioned getting a blog going and you want to do a book.
One way that you can do a book, and I know loads of people that have done this, if you set out to write a book, it’s quite daunting. You say, right, I’m going to write 30, 40, 50,000 words on a book and I’m going to do so many words per day. It’s really hard to do that and stick to it.
But if you’re writing a blog and you’re writing blogs every day on a particular subject, whatever it may be, I’ve seen people then take those blogs and form that into a book. That is your book. It’s just much easier to write a 500 word blog or a 400 word blog once a week than it is to try and write a book.
And then you’ll find that everything you’ve written over the last year or the last two years, that’s a book. It just needs to be put together.
And I’ve seen lots of people do that and release it as a book and it works.
Ann: [52:51] Right. Okay. Always good advice.
So I do think I need to get the blog. I had the blog and it was all about fitness and triathlon and open water swimming because I was getting into all of that at the time.
And I spent a lot of this year, I did a lot of reading. I didn’t realise I was looking at when I actually bought that book so that I could tell you that I bought it in, I couldn’t remember when I bought it. I bought it in 2013.
So this career change has been festering for quite a while, and trying to find your actual purpose.
And you know, again, listening to a whole lot of podcasts has really helped. There’s loads out there.
I was really surprised at the High Performance Podcast how good it is. It’s almost like a little therapy.
The Rick Astley one, it’s going to be good. Well, you have to pick it carefully. There might be some people on there, but there’s been some really good episodes.
The one with Deirdre… Smith was really kind of, she’s not everybody’s cup of tea and she said a couple of slightly left field things at the beginning, but actually a lot of it was really interesting, and she’s in her 80s now, so she’s lived a life so she’s got things to say, and I just thought it was really interesting.
Anyway. And How To Fail by Elizabeth Day. That’s been a bit, again kind of, fear holds you back.
And it was the fear of, oh, you liked my blog. Well, you’re going to have to try, aren’t you?
Because yeah, that can hold you back from writing a book. Who’s going to read a book that I’ve written?
It can hold you back, as you say, from writing a blog. It can hold you back from posting on social media. Why should I post on social media? Who’s going to read what I’ve done?
It can hold you back from doing a podcast. I know lots of people that would like to do a podcast, but they think, who’s going to listen to me?
Darren: [54:43] Yeah. People will. Everybody has something interesting to say. Everybody has something that’s inside them that’s worth getting out.
Ann: [54:50] Definitely. And there was a quote as well. I can’t remember. I need to find a source of it and it will go on my blog as soon as I start it.
It might be Winston Churchill, but it was like, even if you set out to do something and nobody likes it, one person will be happy because you’ve done it. I’m paraphrasing dramatically, but that’s it.
It’s kind of like if I set this blog up, at least I’ll be happy. 10-year-old me will be happy.
So I don’t know. You owe it to 10-year-old you.
Darren: [55:16] 10-year-old you is the most important person to you.
Ann: [55:22] She definitely is. So yeah, you got me thinking. So that might be the last career change. I had no idea.
I’m just interested, I’m just watching social media now with interest because it does look as if social media is just, it’s just going to keep on evolving. So who knows in 12 years time.
Darren: [55:47] Yeah. Who can say? It might even be dead. It might even be dead. Could well be. AI might have something of its own that replaces it.
Ann: [55:59] Yeah. I’m not well versed enough to actually predict what’s happening, but it does seem to me that people really don’t want to post their lives online anymore, and it’ll just become another entertainment forum.
So basically, everybody’s going on about the decline of TV and people on their phones. I reckon we’ve just replaced watching TV with being on our phones.
We’re probably not spending dramatically more. I suppose it is. The argument is that phones are slightly more addictive than the TV. But, you know, if you’re watching a good TV programme, you’re just going to sit there, aren’t you? You’re not going to change.
So why is that different from being on your phone?
Darren: [56:40] A lot of people now are dual screen. They’ll look at a TV programme and they’ll look at their phone at the same time. I try not to do that. I really try not to do that.
Ann: [56:53] Willpower. Takes a lot of willpower not to do that.
Darren: [56:59] Oh yeah. Even when you’re watching something you really enjoy that you’ve looked forward to, you still find yourself, arm reaches out for your phone and just checks. I wonder what someone said on WhatsApp. Oh no. No. I’m watching this.
Ann: [57:12] Yeah. I must admit that’s the one thing. I still have my Twitter account, but I deleted the app. And I watched Celebrity… last week and as soon as it finished, I thought I’d love to go to Twitter and see what everybody’s thinking. I really was.
And that’s interesting to me because it’s kind of like, actually yeah, I’m still interested in connecting with people and seeing what’s what.
Because I was watching on my own. Husband’s not interested and obviously the kids are at uni. So it’s kind of like, but I want to say about, and Paloma, and you know, and all the rest of it.
So anyway, that’s a total, sorry, we’re almost out of time, but you’ve got me thinking there now.
Darren: [58:04] I’ve been thinking for a while I should delete Twitter because I use it less and less. I’ve not tweeted for a very long time and whenever I look at Twitter I’m disappointed. It annoys me.
It’s just either garbage. Twitter’s algorithm from Elon Musk is deliberately showing you things that are going to annoy you because it wants to enrage you to respond. That’s how it’s working.
And I just think what’s the point in having all this negativity in my life. Do I really want to open an app and see the latest comments from Piers Morgan and Tommy Robinson? Neither of which I follow, but that’s what I’m seeing anyway.
That’s where I was. I’m going to delete it. I’m going to delete it.
Ann: [58:38] Yeah. For me, it’s a shame though because, you know, before he took over, that’s where I met a lot of my running tribe, because you could find, I found a lot of people and they became friends in real life.
I’m here to tell you that people that I met through it, it was called Run Chat UK, hashtag UK Run Chat. You just put that in and see what people thinking.
They had a chat hour every Sunday and I met quite a lot of people and I met them in real life then because we meet up at races.
So that for me was the power of social media for good. It’s just a shame it’s become such a cesspit.
And yeah, as you say, social media evolves and Twitter has evolved into something that isn’t really useful anymore.
Darren: [59:21] No, it’s not really relevant. Forget it. Get rid. I will. I will. I’m going to do it. I’m going to get rid.
So, Ann, anyone listening to this thinking, I’d love to get in contact with you. I’d love to talk to you about potentially renting out my own camper van, what advice you could give, or I’d like to talk to you about social media.
What’s the best way they can get in touch with you?
Ann: [59:44] I think at the moment probably on my Instagram, which is not the most professional because it’s anc88 is the handle on Instagram.
But we’ll pop a link to that below the podcast.
Yeah, we can do that. And I’ll send you the links to, I’ll send you the details of the books.
There’s also a book, because initially having the camper van business wasn’t enough on its own, so I did other bits and pieces. So that’s what you call a portfolio career.
So there’s quite a good book on that as well. So again for people, if they want to take away, it’s quite an interesting book to sort of help you build that.
In terms of some people might be thinking, build side hustle before you leave the main job. So you could think about that as well.
So yes, on Instagram, we’ll give you my handle.
Darren: [1:00:33] All right. We’ll pop the links to the books that you mentioned below the podcast as well.
So anybody listening, look in the show notes on iTunes or Spotify. If you’re on YouTube, then scroll down. It’s in the description below the video.
So, Ann, thank you very much for being on the podcast. I’ve loved hearing how you’ve gone from legal eagle to camper hippie to social media practitioner. It’s been great.
Ann: [1:01:03] Thank you.
Darren: [1:01:03] Okay, thank you.
