(01:15) Darren: This week on The Engaging Marketeer podcast, I am speaking with Phil Chantry, who has not only grown, scaled, and sold a business — he’s done it twice. He is now a coach with ActionCOACH, helping other business owners learn how to grow, scale, and potentially sell their businesses. Today, I’m going to be finding out from Phil how he does that, how he helps his clients, the kinds of clients he works with, and what advice he has for business owners who want to grow, scale, and exit their businesses.
Phil, your position, your career, your job is in helping businesses and helping them grow, helping them to scale, and helping them to run without the business owner. Could you tell us the kinds of businesses you like to help and the problems they come to you with?
Phil: Yeah, absolutely. So, when I first started coaching about eight years ago, I went out to people and said, “Look, I can help you create a business that can work without you,” and I was met with a stony silence. Because most people don’t feel as though they could do it, and they’ve never seen anyone who has. It’s quite difficult to focus on that end goal.
Usually, people want one of three things: they want to make more money, they want to get better results from their time, or they want to get better results from their team. So, those tend to be the three main areas I focus on.
I just had a client I jumped off a session with, and his challenge right now is getting better results from his team and his time. Money-wise, things are pretty good, but he knows that if he can get better results from his team and his time, then obviously, a lot more money will flow.
Maybe creating a business that can work without him is on his list at some stage.
In terms of the types of companies I work with, I’d say two-thirds of them are trades businesses. I don’t specifically go out there to attract trades businesses, but a lot of those people are interested in growing their team. Maybe they’ve got a successful business already but they’re not in control of their numbers. They don’t know what marketing is, even.
A company like yours might be able to help some of these clients, if they have an interest in digital marketing or feel that having a digital presence could help them get from A to B.
A lot of them struggle with sales as well, Darren. They’re not really clear on what to do with the leads they’re bringing in. How do we present ourselves in the best light to get better results from the leads we’re generating?
So, in a nutshell, that’s a rough and ready answer for you.
(04:16)
Darren: You mentioned helping people have their businesses work without them — that’s a concept that some people, when they start in business, will think, “How the hell is that going to work? How can my business work without me? I am the business; there’s no way it could work without me! I wouldn’t want it to work without me!” Why is that important?
Phil: Well, for me, if you run a business that’s wholly reliant on you, you’ve kind of just bought yourself a job. It’s not really a business, in my opinion. A business is a commercial, profitable enterprise that could work without you one day.
So, if you want to buy yourself a job — if it’s a lifestyle thing — then that’s absolutely fine. There are people out there who are happy to run a business in that manner. But if you want to get to a stage where you’re not having to answer calls when you’re on holiday, answer emails when you’re not at work, and you’re actually able to go on holidays that you want to go on, not work weekends, and do the things you enjoy doing, then that’s where it starts to become important.
Too many people I find do the stuff they don’t necessarily want to do, rather than hiring people to do that for them. The reason they can’t do that is not because they don’t want to, necessarily. They might not know how to, or they might not be able to afford it. They might not have the money coming in.
So my thinking is, okay, if we could generate more cash flow into the business and then systemize the business so it could work without the business owner, then why not? Why couldn’t the business owner start to reduce their hours and maybe do things outside the business they want to get involved in?
Some people want to start a new business, right? Some people want to go in a totally different direction. I’ve worked with a chiropractor who now runs his own Instagram business. He’s launched a business that has nothing to do with his original one. He’s now able to step away from his original business to focus on the stuff he really enjoys doing and make more money in the process.
(05:45)
Darren: You mentioned working with trades. I said at the beginning we don’t have a huge number of trades that we personally work with. I think the reason for that is a lot of trades struggle with growth in their business because there’s an inbuilt concern that if they take someone on and train them to do what they do — say, a joiner, for example — that joiner is then going to learn everything from them, leave, and set up in competition. How do you get over that issue with your clients?
Phil: Good question. So, often people will… Well, firstly, if you’ve got people who want to progress and grow within their career, you will lose some of them who will start their own business.
But my thinking is, if the business owner has a relationship with the larger clients they’ve got, then they don’t necessarily have to be the one doing the work. They need to be the one maintaining that relationship.
For me, there are two ways to keep clients and also get referrals: building the relationship and getting great results. If you’ve got someone working for you who has relationships with your clients and is responsible for getting the great results for those clients, then that could absolutely happen.
So, from my point of view, it’s about keeping that relationship with your clients, especially the larger ones. Or at least moving the relationships around the company, so you haven’t necessarily got any one person with relationships but instead, six or seven or eight people with relationships with clients. Then you’re not going to lose everything all in one go.
You can also get them to sign non-compete agreements, of course. Some people would say they’re not worth the paper they’re written on, but they definitely serve as a deterrent for people trying to pinch clients and start fresh elsewhere.
(07:43)
Darren: I was going to say that because there is this thing where you can’t prevent somebody from earning a living. If they’re a joiner and you’re a joiner, and you’ve set the non-compete on it, you can’t stop them from being a joiner.
Phil: Absolutely, you can’t. But there are certain things you can put in place that I’ve seen work quite well in terms of reducing the risk of that happening. I’ve not had a single client in the last seven years where someone has actually run off and taken their business.
Again, sticking with the trades analogy, one of the problems that trades businesses have — and I’ve seen this with companies over the years — is that when they try to grow their business and they take on staff, maybe they get three or four people out on the tools doing the job for them. Their job, essentially, becomes lead generation, client liaison, and working on contracts.
(08:43)
Darren: If they hit a dry patch — which can happen, especially during the pandemic we had — they then have the problem of paying the staff they’ve got, potentially letting them go, or not getting paid themselves. How do you help businesses get over that hurdle of keeping their employees fed?
Phil: Really good question. Obviously, there are things that come up that we can’t foresee, like pandemics and what have you. My thinking is really to make sure that a percentage of your team is subcontractors.
So, at least if you’re not getting the business through, you’re not paying subcontractors to do the work. The other side of that is, of course, that subcontractors can drop you at a moment’s notice, so there’s a bit of a risk there too.
But I’ve got a few clients who have permanent subcontractors — people who know that they’re going to be working for them next week, next month, next year. But ultimately, they’re not tied in with staff salaries, PAYE, and that type of thing.
There’s a balance that needs to be struck between paid labor and subcontracted labor. If business is going through a lean spell, you want to keep everyone busy. But when the peaks happen, it’s impossible to recruit and train people at the rate you need to. So, you need a healthy number of subcontractors.
(10:14)
The most important thing is to have a list of go-to people. So, when something goes wrong, you’re not tearing your hair out overnight trying to find replacements.
Darren: I’ve seen exactly what you said, particularly in the kitchen industry. There’s a big lack in the UK of skilled trades who are happy to do this.
Phil: Yeah, absolutely. There’s been a decline in apprenticeships, and it’s just not as big a deal as it used to be 20-30 years ago. Also, I think there’s a bit of an entitled generation coming through that isn’t prepared to necessarily work for it. I wouldn’t say that about everyone, but I’ve seen some examples where people struggle with younger people, for sure.
But also, my job isn’t just to take the side of the business owner. I’m here to help people make logical decisions about their business. So, if a client comes in and says, “I’ve got this youngster working for me, and he’s a one-year qualified electrician. He’s not doing what he’s meant to do, and I’m thinking of getting rid of him. What should I do, Phil?”
My job isn’t to give an answer based on just that one question. It’s to find out what the problem really is. Have we recruited the wrong person? Have we trained them properly? Are we holding them accountable? Do we have systems in place to give them the best opportunity to succeed?
Often, when I ask a few more questions, the business owner points the finger back at themselves. They realize, “Maybe it was me. Perhaps we didn’t train them properly. We threw them in at the deep end and expected them to succeed.”
So, it’s about giving the people in your team the right opportunities to do the job properly.
(12:44)
Darren: Do you ever get a problem where you’re helping a client like that, and you know the issue is the business leader, the way they recruit staff or the way they motivate staff, or micromanage? Do you get a problem with them admitting that they’re the issue?
Phil: Generally speaking, I don’t actually have that much of a problem with admitting that they’re the issue. I remember asking a kitchen fitter, funnily enough, about four years ago — it’s always the kitchen fitters, isn’t it?
Darren: Absolutely.
Phil: He had a decent-sized business with about 30-40 staff. I said, “Give yourself a score out of 10. What do you think of your man management skills?” He said, “I’d give myself a one out of ten.” I said, “Okay, so one being low?” And he said, “Yep.” I said, “Alright, what do we need to do to get that from a one to a two?”
So, really, it’s not about trying to create the best manager in the world quickly. It’s about getting them to have some self-awareness, so they know what they’re doing, what they’re good at, and what they’re not good at. Then they can give themselves the opportunity to develop.
Maybe they’re just not the right person to be a manager. Maybe there’s someone else in the business who would make a better manager.
For me, it’s about getting the business working well. I’ve got another example of a roofing business where the managing director said, “I’m not the right person to manage this company anymore.”
I said, “Okay, so what do you want to do?” He said, “Well, I still want control of the company. I don’t want to sell the business.”
I said, “Fine. What do you think we could do?” He said, “Maybe if we could find a managing director. We’ve built up the profits in the business, so it can afford to pay a managing director and still pay me my salary and dividends as well.”
So, he found someone for the job — someone who was a better fit for running the company. This way, he could step back from the day-to-day management while maintaining control and reaping the rewards from his business.
(14:13)
Darren: That’s the key, isn’t it? Identifying the stuff that you’re not good at, or you don’t like doing, or takes you a long time to do — things that certainly aren’t profitable — and finding someone better, quicker, or cheaper, or all three, to do that for you. That’s the key to business, really.
Phil: Absolutely.
Darren: So, what stops somebody from doing this? What stops a business owner from scaling their business and making it work without them?
Phil: I would say fear of failure, maybe. Not having the right guidance, not having the right support around them, maybe it’s a self-limiting belief based on the fact they’ve never known anyone to do it. If you’ve never known anyone who’s scaled a business to work without them, most people would think, “Well, it’s not really possible.” So they get held back.
Whereas, imagine if that same person had 10 friends who had scaled their businesses and either sold them or had businesses that worked without them — they’d believe that it’s possible. They might still think it’s a struggle, but they’d at least believe that it’s possible.
I think upbringing and environment — the people you surround yourself with — is critical. If you know someone who’s done it, you’re more likely to believe that you can do it, too.
Someone once said that “you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with.” And if those people aren’t doing so well for themselves, then you’re probably not going to be able to stretch your belief system to a point where you feel that it’s possible to scale.
I think that’s the real reason why people don’t feel it’s possible. Plus, they also don’t have a plan. Most people I speak to, if I ask, “Do you have a business plan?” 80% of them say no. The 20% that have one have just plucked numbers out of the air. There’s no link back to their personal goals. There’s no action plan, and no one is really clear on who’s going to do what and when.
So again, people tend to let their business control them, instead of the other way around. They think they’re the boss, but in reality, their clients are their bosses. Their team members can be their bosses in a funny sort of way, too.
(16:07)
Darren: You do hear people a lot saying, “Oh, I’d love to run my own business. I’d love to be my own boss, take time off whenever I want, get up whenever I like, go into work whenever I want, go home whenever I want, take a week off without any thoughts…” But it’s not like that, is it?
Phil: No, absolutely not. And it’s only when you… Most people start off as a technician. There’s a great book to read for any of your listeners, Darren. It’s called “The E-Myth” by Michael E. Gerber. It’s all about a technician who’s really good at what they do. So, say, for example, you’re really good at bookkeeping or roofing, or you’re great at running a print factory. But the problem is, when you run your own business, you realize, “Okay, now I’ve got to find somewhere to work. I’ve got to finance the business. I’ve got to finance the fact that I’m probably not going to have any clients in the first few months. And I’ve also got to put food on the table and pay the mortgage.”
And oh, I’ve also got to recruit. I’ve never really done that before, and I’ve never really trained anyone either. And then there’s marketing — I don’t even understand what that is! That’s just some sort of dark art I’ve never really been involved in. Oh, and control of the numbers — well, what numbers do I need to be in control of? What systems do I need, like CRM systems or soft systems? What do I need to put in place?
So, suddenly, they go from being a technician who’s very good at their skill to realizing, “Oh, I’m running a business. This is not the same job at all.” And actually, I haven’t got much time to spend on the technician side of it anymore because I’ve got to do all this other stuff, and now I’m working crazy hours.
(19:04)
Darren: Yeah, from what you just said there, it sounds like you’re scaring the hell out of people who are listening to this!
Phil: Absolutely. I think the two core areas of business that you need — if you could strip everything else away, if you’ve got two things going for you, it’s a healthy mindset and a positive cash flow. Literally, as far as I’m concerned, everything else could fall apart around your ears, could be a disaster, and you’d still be fine.
If your mindset isn’t strong enough or resilient enough to run a new business or to run an existing business, then maybe you need to look for another solution in life. And, let’s say you’ve got a great mindset, but unfortunately, you’ve only got 50p in your bank account and you’ve got to pay the mortgage at the end of the month — your mindset probably isn’t going to be strong enough to solve that issue really quickly, unless, of course, you can borrow money or sell assets or something.
For me, a business does need enough money in the bank. I always say to people, “You need three months’ overhead in your bank account at any point in time to have a stable business.” Some people might say more, some might say less, but generally, three months is a really good rule of thumb. If you’ve got that and you’ve paid your massive corporation tax bill or VAT bill, if you’ve got that in your bank, you’re doing okay, and you’re in a really stable position.
(21:31)
Darren: So, positive mindset and stable cash flow — is that right?
Phil: Absolutely.
Darren: Million-dollar question — how do you get a positive mindset and how do you get a stable cash flow?
Phil: Two questions in one! Okay, so for the positive mindset, I would say the most important thing really is to surround yourself with people who also have positive mindsets. People are really good at dragging others down. There’s a great book called The Miracle Morning that I would recommend anyone read who’s listening to this.
That book is all about what you do to look after yourself. We’re talking health, exercise, sleep — things that not everyone buys into, like self-affirmations. But the idea behind it is that if you tell yourself the same thing over and over again, the chances are you might believe that you’re feeding yourself. It doesn’t work for everyone, but I know it works really well.
On the flip side, if you’re telling yourself negative things, the chances are you’re going to start believing that too. Why wouldn’t the opposite be true if you start feeding yourself positive information? If you’re not the best salesperson in the world, getting out of bed and saying, “I’m the best salesperson in the world” 10 times before you put your clothes on probably isn’t going to work. But if you tell yourself, “I’m becoming the best salesperson in the area,” it’s probably a little more believable and gives you a sense of progress.
For some people, the health and exercise part is really important. I’ve got a new client, a couple of locksmiths, fantastic guys. They get to bed at half-past 8 every evening, even though they’re not even 30 years old. They stick to that. They say, “We want to get up early and get to the gym,” and they’re on it.
(23:29)
Darren: That’s great, but do you think that’s sustainable in the long run when you’ve got a family?
Phil: Absolutely, but the discipline they have is admirable. Not sure how long they can sustain it, especially if they have kids, but at least they’ve got a solid routine now.
Darren: I think that’s a good book to start reading if you want to develop your mindset. Also, looking at, you know, if you’ve got some positive Google reviews or positive reviews elsewhere, reading those regularly and taking time to reflect on what’s gone well is important.
Phil: Absolutely. Most people focus on what’s next — always thinking about the next step. Sometimes, it’s worth reflecting on the progress you’ve made in the last year, the last month, the last week. Your subconscious needs to be recognized for the progress you’ve made. It’s not just about money; things like recognition and time with your family are also really important.
Darren: That’s exactly what I was talking about the other day with someone. I was getting stressed about all the things I still had to do in my new house, and they told me, “Stop and think about everything you’ve already achieved. All the projects you’ve completed.”
Phil: Exactly. Looking back at what you’ve achieved helps maintain motivation and positivity.
(25:20)
Darren: It’s interesting what you said there about “what next, what next, what next” — and then taking time to reflect on what you’ve already achieved. I had pretty much that exact same conversation the other day with someone who’s a counselor. I was getting a bit stressed about all the things I still had to do in the new house that I’ve moved into — the things I hadn’t done yet — and they said, “Look, no, no, just think about what you have achieved since you bought that house. All the things you’ve project-managed, all the things that you’ve had built, all the things you’ve had done. Focus on the positive and stop putting yourself down by thinking about what you haven’t done.” That’s pretty much what you just said.
Phil: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. And sometimes, I’ve been guilty myself of falling into that “what next” mentality, rather than actually stopping to appreciate everything I’ve already done. At the end of each day, I recommend writing down at least one thing you can be proud of. It could be a simple achievement, but if you commit it to memory or even write it down, it helps you appreciate what you’ve done, especially if you’ve had a rough day. Not every day is going to be perfect.
(25:49)
Darren: I think that’s good advice. Sometimes it’s easy to focus on the negative, isn’t it? Especially when you’re juggling so many things, and it’s hard to see the progress. It’s about taking a step back and recognizing what you’ve accomplished, however small.
Phil: Exactly. And it doesn’t have to be some massive win. The little things add up. Even if it’s just, “I got through the day without feeling completely overwhelmed” or “I made progress on a task I’ve been putting off for weeks.” That’s a win, too.
Darren: Absolutely. I think that’s fantastic. So, moving on from the mindset part, let’s talk about cash flow. I’m sure that’s a key part of everything you do in business.
Phil: Cash flow is everything, Darren. It really is. If you don’t have healthy cash flow, it doesn’t matter how good your product or service is. It’s like running a car without fuel. If the fuel (cash) runs out, the business stops.
(26:53)
Darren: So how do you ensure consistent, positive cash flow in a business, especially when they’re starting out or going through lean periods?
Phil: Absolutely. So, the first thing I would say is to make sure you’re invoicing regularly and promptly. And that includes having clear payment terms in place from the outset. If you’re not invoicing on time or keeping track of who owes you money, it’s going to come back to bite you.
Darren: Right. I think a lot of people don’t realize the importance of invoicing promptly. You know, they might do the work, but then delay sending the invoice, and that just creates a huge delay in cash flow.
Phil: Exactly. It’s one of the simplest things you can do to keep cash flowing into your business. Make sure the client knows your terms, and make sure you stick to them.
Another important thing is to set expectations around overdue payments. When a client doesn’t pay on time, it’s essential to have clear policies and follow through. So, if you go over the 30 days you’ve agreed upon, you could tell them, “I’m sorry, but we can’t offer you the same payment terms on the next job. It’ll now be 14 days instead of 30.”
If you’re upfront with clients about this at the beginning of the relationship, then when payment issues arise, they’re not shocked. You’ve already explained the consequences of late payments.
(27:22)
Darren: I like that idea of having the conversations upfront, so people aren’t taken by surprise later on. How do you deal with clients who are constantly late paying, though?
Phil: A lot of businesses run into this issue, and it can create a big strain. First and foremost, don’t just send the same email over and over again if a client isn’t paying. It’s really easy to fall into that trap of hoping they’ll pay eventually. But if they’re ignoring you, it’s time to escalate it.
I’ve worked with clients who, after implementing these strategies, saw 80% of their overdue debt cleared in just two months. Just by being clear upfront and following through on their terms, they started getting paid faster and more consistently.
And if the situation is really bad, you might want to consider hiring a debt collection service or passing it to a credit control company. They can step in, handle the process professionally, and often get results without you having to chase down payments yourself.
(28:24)
Darren: That makes sense. Keeping things clear and professional is key. What else would you recommend for boosting cash flow?
Phil: Another thing I’d recommend is focusing on debt prevention, not just debt collection. What I mean by this is, when you’re signing up a new client, make sure you explain your payment terms upfront. Don’t just take for granted that they know how and when to pay.
For example, when you sign a contract, tell the client, “Okay, here’s the scope of work, and our payment terms are X. If we don’t get paid by the agreed date, we’ll change the terms for future work.” Most clients are fine with that, but if you’re proactive in setting these expectations, it makes things a lot easier down the line.
And if you do run into issues with overdue payments, it’s important to follow up. Stay consistent with reminders. Don’t let it drag on.
(29:23)
Darren: So, basically, it all comes down to clear communication and having strong policies in place from the start.
Phil: Exactly. And also, if you’ve been in business for a while and things get tight, it’s also wise to have a contingency plan. Have access to a line of credit or an overdraft to ensure you can cover your overheads while you work through any cash flow challenges.
Darren: Got it. What about cash flow forecasting? How important is that?
Phil: Cash flow forecasting is critical. It’s not just about having the cash available to pay bills today; it’s about predicting what your business will need over the next few months or even years. I help my clients with cash flow forecasts all the time. It’s really important to know exactly when your business will face a potential cash shortage. This way, you can act early and avoid running into serious trouble.
(30:29)
Darren: So, it’s all about staying on top of the numbers, being proactive, and not just reactive.
Phil: Yes, exactly. You don’t want to wait until the cash is gone and then scramble to figure out how to fix it. By forecasting and planning ahead, you can put in place the strategies you need to keep your cash flow healthy.
Darren: That makes perfect sense. So, in terms of finding the right clients — and we touched on this a little earlier — is that also part of boosting cash flow?
Phil: Absolutely. One of the biggest challenges I see is businesses attracting clients who don’t pay on time or who cause trouble down the line. It’s really important to find clients who are financially stable and who respect your business and your time.
If you’re attracting clients who are consistently difficult or who don’t value your work, it’s a huge drain on your cash flow and resources. The best way to combat this is by creating a very clear profile of your ideal client, and then only targeting that group.
(30:58)
Darren: It’s interesting. I know people who’ve worked with clients in the past who haven’t paid, and they’re too nice to chase them. They’ll say, “Oh, maybe it’s just an oversight. Maybe they didn’t mean to.”
Phil: Yes, and that’s where the problem often lies. If you’re that kind of person who’s too timid to chase up overdue payments, delegate it to someone who is more comfortable with it. You can hire a credit control company, or you can train someone in your business to handle it. But it’s important to have a system in place for getting paid, and it’s important to follow through.
That’s part of your business culture. If you’re going to let clients walk all over you, it’s going to be hard to scale.
Darren: I totally agree. I know a guy who’s in networking, and he asked recently, “How do you get someone to pay their bill after they’ve been dodging me for six weeks?” He’s such a nice guy, and he won’t chase them hard. He keeps thinking, “Oh, maybe it’s an oversight.”
Phil: Yes, I’ve seen that too. And honestly, if you’re that kind of person, give the task to someone who’s more assertive or consider outsourcing it. Keep emotions out of it. It’s just business, and it’s your responsibility to protect your business and ensure it gets paid.
Darren: Absolutely. It’s great advice.
Phil: Thanks, Darren. I’m glad that helped.
(32:23)
Darren: Let’s talk about something else you mentioned earlier: surrounding yourself with the right people. You said you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Most people aren’t business owners — they’re employees or, sometimes, unemployed. So if you’re hanging around with your mates down the pub, they’re probably not going to understand the challenges you face in business. They’re not going to understand what it means to win business, pay employees, and cover your taxes. How do you find people who understand your problems? And should you ditch your mates if they’re not helpful?
Phil: That’s a really good question, Darren. I’ve had people ask me similar things before. I would say that you definitely need to surround yourself with people who understand what you’re going through. If your friends are supportive but just don’t understand business, you don’t necessarily have to ditch them, but you need to be aware of the advice they give you.
If they’re always putting you down or questioning your decisions, it might be time to reassess those relationships.
Networking groups are a great way to meet like-minded people. For example, joining something like BNI can help connect you with people who understand the challenges of business ownership. But even within those groups, it’s important to choose the people you spend time with carefully.
(33:43)
Darren: So you’re suggesting using networking to find people who understand business, not just for referrals?
Phil: Exactly. Networking is great for building relationships with people who can give you fresh perspectives and insights. It’s also an excellent way to find accountability partners. There’s a great saying: “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.” If those five people aren’t pushing you to improve, it might be time to find some new connections.
Let me know if you’d like to continue or if you need further expansion. This should now be closer to the full transcript with a comprehensive and clean layout of the conversation.
(34:16)
Darren: You mentioned that BNI could be a great way to connect with people who understand business. What about those people who aren’t convinced about networking, who think it’s a waste of time or even a “scam” or a “cult”? How do you address that kind of response?
Phil: Well, there are definitely some networking groups that are more effective than others, but I think it all comes down to your mindset and approach. I get why people might be skeptical about networking. A lot of people have heard negative things about certain groups, but the key is to test it out for yourself.
I always say, “What’s the downside? A couple of hours out of your life, maybe 20 quid to join?” That’s the cost. The potential upside, though, could be massive. You could meet a bunch of people who could really help your business grow, or you might find someone who could become a key partner or client.
Darren: So it’s about testing the waters and making an informed decision?
Phil: Exactly. I’ve always been about testing and measuring. That’s something we used to do a lot when I ran my own marketing agency. You test new ideas and strategies before you roll them out. And if you’re not sure about networking, go to one or two sessions, see if it works for you, and assess the results. You don’t have to dive in headfirst if you’re not sure.
And honestly, many groups will let you try before you buy. That means you can experience it firsthand and decide whether it’s a good fit for you. Don’t make judgments based on what others have said—get the information yourself.
(35:14)
Darren: Yeah, and I think some people just have preconceived ideas without ever trying it out for themselves. I’ve seen it happen. You get the odd negative review or the one person who didn’t have a great experience, and that gets amplified in their mind. But like you said, testing and measuring is important.
Phil: Exactly. If you don’t try it, you don’t know. For example, I know a lot of people who originally thought BNI wasn’t for them but, after trying it, ended up getting great results. It wasn’t what they expected, and it worked for them in ways they hadn’t anticipated.
That’s what it comes down to: getting out there, trying new things, and seeing what works for you. And if it doesn’t work, don’t be afraid to walk away and try something else. But at least you’ve tested it and made an informed decision.
Darren: Yeah, I think a lot of it is about just taking action and being open to learning from experiences.
Phil: Absolutely. And that’s where a lot of people get stuck—they overthink things or hold off on taking action because they’re not sure what the outcome will be. But you’ve got to start somewhere. Even if things don’t go as planned, you’ll learn something valuable along the way, and that will help you in the future.
(36:17)
Darren: Yeah, definitely. It’s the same with business coaching. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves business coaches, and some people have a lot of skepticism about whether they really know what they’re doing. So, what makes you different from other business coaches?
Phil: Great question. I think the big differentiator for me is that I’ve actually built and sold two businesses myself. I’ve been through the entire journey — I’ve scaled businesses, faced challenges, learned from my mistakes, and successfully exited businesses. I’ve walked the walk, not just talked the talk.
So, I know firsthand what it takes to scale a business, what works, and what doesn’t. I’ve been in the trenches. And because I’ve been a client of a business coach myself, I have a deep understanding of what it’s like to be on the other side of the relationship. I can put myself in my clients’ shoes very easily.
Another thing that sets me apart is the fact that I offer a money-back guarantee. If you put the work in during our coaching sessions and you don’t see at least a return on your investment in the first year, I’ll refund you the difference. This is about confidence in what I do and making sure clients get results.
(37:21)
Darren: That’s a pretty bold guarantee. What kind of results do you see your clients achieving?
Phil: Well, I track everything. We measure key metrics like the number of leads they’re generating, their conversion rates, average sales value, and overall gross profit margin. It’s about constant testing and measuring. If you put the work in and follow the plan, results will follow.
But it’s not always about huge immediate wins. Sometimes it’s about small incremental improvements. Over time, those improvements compound, and that’s when you really start to see significant growth.
And if I ever feel that a client and I aren’t a good fit, I’ll be upfront about it and let them know. I’d rather part ways early than keep someone on if I don’t think I can help them get the results they want.
(39:20)
Darren: I love that approach. So, are there any clients you’ve struggled to help? And if so, what were the reasons for that?
Phil: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve had a few clients where things just didn’t work out. One example is a guy who ran a welding supplies business. When I started working with him, I felt confident I could help him. However, over time, it became clear that the way he wanted to market and sell his products wasn’t going to work. He was very set in his ways and wasn’t open to shifting his approach.
I tried to help him make more logical decisions, but ultimately, his methodology was too narrow. He was convinced that his way would work, but it didn’t. After a few months, I realized it wasn’t a good fit, and we parted ways. I learned a valuable lesson from that experience — it’s crucial to ensure that both the coach and the client are aligned on goals and methods right from the start.
(40:16)
Darren: That’s an important lesson. When you’re working with clients, how can business owners identify if someone is a bad fit for them early on?
Phil: Great question. I always prequalify potential clients to make sure we’re a good match. First, I ask myself: Do I get along with this person? We’re going to be working closely together, so it’s important to have that rapport. Second, I ask: Can I help them achieve their goals faster than they could on their own? If they don’t see the value in coaching, it’s not going to work.
And third, I look at whether they’re coachable. Are they willing to put in the work? Are they open to learning and implementing new strategies, or are they set in their ways? If they’re not coachable, it’s not going to work.
I also make sure that they have a clear understanding of what coaching involves and what they can expect. If they’re unclear about what they want or what they’re trying to achieve, it’s a red flag.
(41:40)
Darren: That’s a really solid approach. Prequalifying and making sure both sides are aligned from the start is key.
Phil: Absolutely. A good working relationship and clear expectations on both sides can make all the difference.
Darren: So, if someone listening to this wants to get in touch with you, what’s the best way for them to reach out?
Phil: The best way to reach me is via email at philipchantry@actioncoach.com. You can also give me a call or reach out through my website. I’m always happy to have an initial conversation and see if there’s a fit. I also offer a free strategy session for anyone interested in learning how we can help them grow and scale their business.
Darren: I’ll make sure to include those links in the show notes below. Phil, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Phil: Thank you, Darren. It’s been great talking with you.
Darren: Take care, Phil, and thanks again for the insights!
Phil: Thanks again, Darren. Take care!
