[00:39] Darren Jamieson:
On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking to Cheryl White
[00:46] Darren Jamieson:
from Apollo Care. Cheryl is a franchise consultant for other businesses and she franchised Apollo Care many years ago
[00:55] Darren Jamieson:
and now has a number of franchises based across the Northwest, Wales and the South. So, I’m going to be asking Cheryl how she managed to franchise Apollo
[01:04] Darren Jamieson:
Care, what challenges she faced, what advice she has for other people, and find out a little bit more about some of the businesses she’s helped franchise across the UK. Franchising.
[01:14] Darren Jamieson:
What would you say is the main benefit to somebody in becoming a franchisee of a business whether it’s Apollo or any type of business?
[01:24] Cheryl White:
So I think becoming one of the, a franchisee of a business, it’s all about support and guidance, Darren, on how
[01:31] Cheryl White:
you’re going to run that business. And what we find is that a lot of people who come to us to start care companies have
[01:38] Cheryl White:
actually got no experience in care at all. They see it as a really good business opportunity, but obviously as
[01:45] Cheryl White:
the founders of that business, we need to make sure that they align with our values and the company culture and what they’re actually looking to build there.
[01:53] Cheryl White:
But somebody looking to start a business, I would always recommend looking at franchises first because it just gives you that little step up the
[02:01] Cheryl White:
ladder to be able to sort of, you know, you’re coming in with that ready made business plan, that blueprint and that team behind you before you even begin.
[02:12] Darren Jamieson:
And is it easy for a business to franchise itself?
[02:16] Cheryl White:
I would say yes and no to that question. So I, I’m also, I like it.
[02:22] Cheryl White:
Oh yeah. I’m also a franchise consultant as well. So I work with three businesses every year to help them to franchise their business with me and the team.
[02:31] Cheryl White:
And the business model to me,
[02:34] Cheryl White:
Darren, is really simple. The business model can be fitted into I would say 90% of businesses out there.
[02:41] Cheryl White:
But it would just be the commitment and the time that the person franchising their business who would then become a
[02:48] Cheryl White:
franchisor understands that they need to commit to that. I think sometimes some of the things that happen is
[02:55] Cheryl White:
people think, oh I’ll franchise my business and then it’ll all just grow and it’ll, you know, I’ll have brand exposure and everything else. But there’s a lot of things that you need to
[03:03] Cheryl White:
put in place in the background to make that work. So the model for me is really, really simple. It’s a simple model. It’s a rinse and repeat model and
[03:12] Cheryl White:
it’s a very lucrative model, but the franchisor needs to really put that effort in for at least the first three years to build up that brand reputation.
[03:22] Darren Jamieson:
So I see this a lot with businesses where they’ve got maybe it’s care, whatever the industry is, and they’ve got it in a particular
[03:30] Darren Jamieson:
region, a particular city, particular area, and they’re doing really well, but they’ve reached a capacity, they want to expand. So the options then are to
[03:39] Darren Jamieson:
set up a new premises in another location and run that themselves and divide their attention.
[03:46] Darren Jamieson:
Or to franchise. What are the difficulties with franchising in terms
[03:53] Darren Jamieson:
of sort of logistics and expense from franchising the business?
[03:59] Cheryl White:
I think, so obviously, you know, if you’re going to work with a franchise consultant, you would pay an upfront fee and then they would help you to get
[04:06] Cheryl White:
everything in place for that. I look at franchising as kind of it’s growing and developing your business using other people’s money. So people
[04:14] Cheryl White:
are investing into you and your brand and then you’re taking that investment and helping them to grow a business in that particular area. So for me there’s
[04:23] Cheryl White:
less risk in doing that. There’s less risk financially than going in and starting your own business there.
[04:31] Cheryl White:
Because it’s somebody else is putting in that financial capital risk there to be able to start that business. And I think
[04:38] Cheryl White:
as well somebody who is going to set a business up within their own area are more likely to be successful because they’re going to have those contacts
[04:46] Cheryl White:
there anyway. So if I was sort of looking to, you know, when I had Apollo and it started in Wirral, if I was then looking say to go to Manchester with
[04:54] Cheryl White:
Apollo, I would have no contacts there at all. I’ve never traded in Manchester and I’ve probably visited
[05:01] Cheryl White:
there about four times ever. Where somebody who comes in and buys the franchise there, that’s where they live,
[05:08] Cheryl White:
that’s where they’ve grown up, that’s where they’ve worked, so they’ve got all of those contacts there. So I would say it’s financially
[05:16] Cheryl White:
more viable to franchise and set them businesses up via the franchise model than it is for sort of self-management
[05:24] Cheryl White:
expansion. I think it’s much easier and safer to do it that way.
[05:28] Darren Jamieson:
So it’s a more cost-effective and quicker way to expand a business,
[05:32] Cheryl White:
I think so definitely. Yeah. And, you know, if you want to get that brand exposure and that brand expansion,
[05:38] Cheryl White:
that for me is the no-brainer way to do it.
[05:42] Darren Jamieson:
But if you’ve got a business though, how will you know if your business is ready for franchising or if it’s even possible to franchise?
[05:51] Cheryl White:
So when I’m looking to franchise somebody’s business, people will come to me and ask me if their business is ready to be franchised. And there’s
[05:59] Cheryl White:
three things that I look for. So the first one, has the business been running for 18 months or more? Because we do
[06:06] Cheryl White:
need a proven business model. We need to be able to see that that business model works and that that business model makes a profit, which is the next
[06:15] Cheryl White:
step. So does the business make a profit because the business does need to be profitable for you to then say that this is a viable business model.
[06:23] Darren Jamieson:
Is there a particular kind of profit margin it needs to be making?
[06:26] Cheryl White:
Not particularly. No. We can look at that because sometimes I’ll look at somebody’s business and what they’re actually doing. Now, I might suggest
[06:34] Cheryl White:
another two or three income streams they could add to that to then help franchises to become more profitable.
[06:40] Cheryl White:
And I do that a lot. People say to me when they work with me, you know, it’s like you take my business apart and put it back together again because that’s
[06:48] Cheryl White:
what I do. It’s always a fresh set of eyes of looking at it. And then the third thing would be that the business needs to be able to be replicated in
[06:56] Cheryl White:
other areas. So you need to be able to sort of pick your business up and put it somewhere else and it will run exactly the same as it would, you know,
[07:05] Cheryl White / Darren Jamieson:
the way you’ve been running it. The thing that always worries me is from the idea of franchising a business out
[07:13] Darren Jamieson:
is why would somebody else want to invest in my business or invest in a, become a franchisee of my business when
[07:21] Darren Jamieson:
they could theoretically do it themselves? How do I know that my brand, the business I’ve got, is worth somebody investing in as a franchisee?
[07:31] Cheryl White:
Yeah. So, and a lot of that is from experience, Darren. So people will look at your experience as a business owner and say, do you know what? I want to tap
[07:38] Cheryl White:
into that experience. It’s like with Apollo, you know, I’ve got over 30 years experience in health and social care. So people who are coming into Apollo who
[07:47] Cheryl White:
have never, or even if they have got experience in social care, they want that experience. They want that team and they want that blueprint to look at it.
[07:55] Cheryl White:
So when you’re taking a potential franchisee through that enquiry process,
[08:01] Cheryl White:
you’re showing them what you’re going to give to them for their, you know, their initial fee or whatever that might be,
[08:06] Cheryl White:
but then you’re also looking at what are they going to bring to the franchise opportunity, what are they going to bring to the franchise network. So, it’s
[08:13] Cheryl White:
always a two-way thing. And, you know, with Apollo, we often say no because we just think people, they’re either not the right fit, they haven’t
[08:21] Cheryl White:
got the passion behind what they’re doing, or they may not have the financial stability to be able to come in and join the business as well.
[08:28] Cheryl White:
And we provide them with sort of cash flows, business plan, and it’s not just about the delivery of care. It is the
[08:35] Cheryl White:
delivery of care is the main point, but it’s also how to run a really sustainable business around that as well.
[08:42] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
Oh, so not everybody that applies to be a franchisee gets accepted then? Absolutely not. No, no, we do turn people away. We used to turn more
[08:51] Cheryl White:
people away than what we did accept people, but now we’ve really sort of knuckled down on that market and message and made the
[09:00] Cheryl White:
working capital really clear to people so that the people who are coming to us now, they’ve got all of that information before they even get on a discovery call with one of my team.
[09:13] Darren Jamieson:
So when someone comes in to become a franchisee, they’ll pay a franchise fee, won’t they?
[09:21] Darren Jamieson:
How is that fee determined by the franchisor and what is it used for?
[09:27] Cheryl White:
So the franchise fee should be determined by what that package looks like. So we work with a franchise accountant. I’ve worked with
[09:35] Cheryl White:
them a very long time. And if I’m working with somebody to franchise the business, what we’ll do is we’ll look at the past, at least two years
[09:43] Cheryl White:
management accounts, we’ll have a look at that and then we’ll see what them profit margins are and then we’ll look then at what we could charge for an
[09:51] Cheryl White:
initial fee and what the ongoing management fee would be. And then again, you know, it’s what you’re bringing into that package. The BFA
[10:00] Cheryl White:
say that the franchisor shouldn’t make any money at all on the initial fee. It should be for setup only, which we try to
[10:07] Cheryl White:
do, you know, so that initial fee should be to get that person into business for at least the first 12
[10:15] Cheryl White:
months. And then what you earn after that on your royalty fee each month is what the franchisor makes their money on.
[10:22] Darren Jamieson:
I didn’t realise that. I didn’t realise that it was sort of understood, expected from the British Franchise Association that the franchisor
[10:30] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
doesn’t actually make profit on the initial phase. Sometimes you might. It just depends on a few variables there. But really, you know,
[10:38] Cheryl White:
so with Apollo Care, we charge 36,000 plus VAT for a franchise. And all of
[10:46] Cheryl White:
that 36,000 is allocated to different things. So, initial training, residential training, marketing,
[10:54] Cheryl White:
software systems, all of the stuff that that franchisee will need to operate in the first 12 months. And all of that
[11:01] Cheryl White:
36,000 is taken with that and then we also have a cash flow budget as well depending on, you know, sort of the
[11:10] Cheryl White:
experience of the franchisee. So that cash flow budget goes between 80 to about 104,000 all in.
[11:19] Darren Jamieson:
Wow.
[11:20] Darren Jamieson:
Okay. And is there, for someone who wants to become a franchisee, you mentioned 38,000 did you say?
[11:27] Cheryl White:
36, 36,000. Some franchises are a lot more expensive than that. So I believe McDonald’s is well over 100,000 and stuff.
[11:36] Darren Jamieson:
You need at least a million for McDonald’s in cash flow.
[11:39] Cheryl White:
Wow. So, it’s a lot of money. Yeah. You need to be really upfront with people,
[11:44] Cheryl White:
Darren. And we have amazing people coming to us to look at the Apollo franchise.
[11:49] Cheryl White:
And unfortunately, they just don’t have the cash flow. They’ve got the 36,000. They’ve got that to be able to invest.
[11:55] Cheryl White:
But we’ve got to be realistic with them about, okay, this is how far your 36,000 will get you. We’ll support you for the
[12:02] Cheryl White:
five-year term, but, you know, you are going to need things like an office premises.
[12:07] Cheryl White:
You know, you’re going to need a registered manager. So we’ve got to factor all that in. So, people are, you know, very well informed before they sign on the line, so to speak,
[12:16] Cheryl White:
and come in and join us.
[12:18] Darren Jamieson:
So, how much would they need for cash flow then for Apollo?
[12:22] Cheryl White:
Yeah. So if they’re going to come in and be their own registered manager, so if they’ve got the health and social care background, all in they would need around about 70 to 80,000.
[12:33] Cheryl White:
If they were coming from a non-health and social care background, they probably need about 104,000.
[12:40] Cheryl White:
And that’s all set out in our financial disclosure document. And then we take new franchises through a
[12:47] Cheryl White:
cash flow exercise as well with all the assumptions and stuff in there so they can see exactly what they should be earning.
[12:54] Darren Jamieson:
So is it something you’d recommend to someone that’s never run a business before?
[12:58] Cheryl White:
Yeah, I love franchise and I can talk about it all day long. Yeah, I would recommend anybody to franchise their
[13:06] Cheryl White:
business if they want growth and they want scale on a big, you know, I’m trying to find the right word for it, on a big scale. If they want
[13:15] Cheryl White:
that, then franchising is absolutely right for them. And then somebody that’s thinking of buying into a business,
[13:21] Cheryl White:
either they’ve never run a business before or they’ve never run a business in that industry before, then absolutely franchise them all the way
[13:30] Cheryl White:
because you’re talking then about cash flow. There’s a lot of people who start up their own business that don’t understand cash flow because they
[13:38] Cheryl White:
go into it with no training, no experience obviously. And yeah, you make mistakes.
[13:45] Cheryl White:
You know, you can even make mistakes by getting new clients too quickly and end up spending money so that the cash flow runs out.
[13:52] Darren Jamieson:
So, how could someone come into a business like Apollo that is established, has all the procedures in
[14:01] Darren Jamieson:
place, and have no experience running a business and be able to do it? It seems like a daunting prospect to me.
[14:08] Cheryl White:
Yeah, so we’re heavily regulated by the Care Quality Commission in Apollo obviously because we provide personal care services. So
[14:17] Cheryl White:
what we do is if somebody’s coming in to buy a care franchise from us with no care background at all, we help to
[14:25] Cheryl White:
source a registered manager who comes into the business full-time with them who has got that care experience. We
[14:31] Cheryl White:
look for people who are experienced in startup domiciliary care businesses.
[14:37] Cheryl White:
So they would become the registered manager for that business and they’ve got to have a registered manager under CQC guidelines who they’re inspected
[14:45] Cheryl White:
by, and then that business owner becomes what we call the nominated individual.
[14:49] Cheryl White:
So they’re responsible for the running of the business, making sure that it’s safe, making sure that, you know, the teams are well trained. So we guide them and we support them through all of that.
[14:59] Cheryl White:
So part of their cash flow would be 12 months registered manager fee as well for paying that registered manager.
[15:07] Cheryl White:
And we do it on a presumption that in 12 months they wouldn’t have a client. I mean we’d expect them to have a client by at least
[15:14] Cheryl White:
month three, but we always have to play it safe. So the minute somebody comes in to enquire about the Apollo
[15:21] Cheryl White:
Care business, we talk them through these expectations of what we expect from them, what we expect from their registered manager and how that cash
[15:29] Cheryl White:
flow is allocated throughout the business journey so that they understand that as soon as they come in.
[15:37] Darren Jamieson:
So,
[15:38] Darren Jamieson:
you mentioned you have a client by month three. That to me would be even more scary. So, they spent £36,000 to
[15:46] Darren Jamieson:
buy into a business. You’ve told them they need about £104,000. That’s including the franchise fee.
[15:54] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah. So, the £104,000, they spend 36 straight away. They’re spending money every month. They’ve hired a full-time manager and they’re at month three and
[16:02] Darren Jamieson:
they maybe don’t have a client yet. How do you reassure them that this is all going to be okay? Don’t worry, this is going to work.
[16:11] Cheryl White:
It’s just expectations. So, you know, when they come on board with us, we start what we call our GIB process,
[16:14] Cheryl White:
which is getting into business. So, we take them through that literally week by week of getting them into business. We start the registration process as soon
[16:22] Cheryl White:
as they come on board with us. When I started the original Apollo Care, I didn’t get a client until week five,
[16:29] Cheryl White:
sorry, month five, because I was doing the marketing and I was doing everything that I needed to be doing.
[16:34] Cheryl White:
And that I think that’s quite typical of a new business startup. You know, you’re not going to come into business tomorrow and get clients the next day. Just doesn’t work like that.
[16:42] Cheryl White:
So it’s reassuring them that this is normal.
[16:46] Cheryl White:
This is the way the business needs to be built. Our franchises, so we’ve got franchises now and that’s where we
[16:53] Cheryl White:
obviously take our management accounts from, we would expect a return on investment by at least the end of year two at the very
[17:01] Cheryl White:
latest on that 100,000, and then they would be starting to go into profit margins. The businesses that
[17:08] Cheryl White:
we sell in Apollo, they’re not quick cash businesses. They’re very high value asset long-term businesses. So
[17:17] Cheryl White:
what you’re building an Apollo business for is eventually to exit that business.
[17:21] Cheryl White:
And if you build that business up the correct way, the way that we tell you to do that, you would not only get your return on investment, you would
[17:29] Cheryl White:
start to then see profit margins coming in around month 24, but also you would be building up an asset to then be able to sell. And, you know,
[17:40] Cheryl White:
really good run care businesses,
[17:42] Cheryl White:
especially under established brands, go for a lot of money, a lot more than 100,000.
[17:48] Darren Jamieson:
See, that’s interesting what you said there because most people that start businesses don’t think about the exit. They don’t think about what
[17:56] Darren Jamieson:
happens at the end. Do I sell it? Do I run it down? Do I just stop it? They just think about I want to be my own boss. I want to be in control of my own destiny. I don’t want to be employed by
[18:04] Darren Jamieson:
anybody. I want to run a business. So the fact you’re looking straight away at we’re going to start it, grow it, scale it, and you can sell it.
[18:12] Cheryl White:
Yeah.
[18:13] Darren Jamieson:
Is brilliant to me. It’s brilliant that you do that. Have you got examples at the moment of people that have grown Apollo and sold the franchise?
[18:22] Cheryl White:
Well, all of my franchises didn’t want to sell, so they’ve all been with me time because they love the business.
[18:27] Cheryl White:
They love the teams. I’ve got some franchises who’ve been with me 12 years now. But they do get their businesses valued. So, that’s something that we encourage them to do a lot.
[18:38] Cheryl White:
So obviously I can’t go into detail about how much they’re worth, but they’re worth lots of money,
[18:44] Cheryl White:
lots of, a lot of money, but they want to stay in the business because one of the ladies had hers valued actually a couple of months ago and she was really
[18:51] Cheryl White:
surprised at the valuation. But then she said, “But what would I do if I sold it? I love being part of the brand. I want to move it up to the next,
[18:59] Cheryl White:
you know, the next level.” And we’ve got franchises coming in now who are buying the second and the third territory areas with us. Because we do talk about
[19:08] Cheryl White:
growth, we talk about assets, we talk about exit planning like you said. And I go to lots of different events,
[19:15] Cheryl White:
Darren. I was at an event last week, yeah, last Wednesday. And it was a CEO event.
[19:20] Cheryl White:
And it was really interesting talking to people there. And what I do see is that people start businesses, they try
[19:27] Cheryl White:
to scale them, they get clients quickly because people will recommend and I call it sort of referral by association.
[19:35] Cheryl White:
They’ll say, “Oh, I know such and such, so you send me a client over,” and all that. Within 12 to 18 months,
[19:40] Cheryl White:
it crashes and burns. They end up in court. They haven’t been able to deliver what they’ve said they’re going to deliver. They’re knackered, and it’s all from not building on a really solid
[19:49] Cheryl White:
foundation. So, when you’re coming into a business, any business opportunity,
[19:54] Cheryl White:
you need to be asking yourself, what do I want to gain from this business? Is it something that I want generational wealth from? Is it something that I just
[20:02] Cheryl White:
want, you know, a couple of thousand pounds a month to live off? And that’s what you need to be looking at before you invest in something.
[20:10] Darren Jamieson:
And you mentioned investing there. So £104,000 obviously is a lot of money.
[20:16] Darren Jamieson:
Most people don’t have that knocking about in the bank. What funding is available for someone that wants to buy into a franchise and start a business this way?
[20:25] Cheryl White:
So the franchisor should be able to advise the potential franchisee coming in on that. So, we have partnerships with a lot of the high
[20:33] Cheryl White:
street banks with Apollo. Our main partnership is with HSBC who have got a fantastic franchising department.
[20:40] Cheryl White:
And they’ve had all of our legal agreement. They’ve had all of our financial figures. So, they’re happy for us to send potential clients over
[20:50] Cheryl White:
and they will have a look at what they need. They know what our cash flow is.
[20:53] Cheryl White:
They know what that’s for. And then the franchisee will sometimes need 50 to 70%
[20:58] Cheryl White:
of the full amount and then the banks will fund the rest. But it’s really making sure, you know, we have to be totally impartial to that funding.
[21:07] Cheryl White:
We can’t really get involved in it. But we do refer them on to the banks if that’s something that they need.
[21:15] Cheryl White:
Normally by the time a franchisee comes to us they’ve already explored that option or they have got the money in the bank. They may have sold a business or they’ve,
[21:25] Cheryl White:
one of the guys that we’re talking to at the moment, he’s going through the enquiry process for Apollo. He’s already got four different businesses and
[21:33] Cheryl White:
they get managed for him. So, he came in and said, you know what, the capital, he expected that much working capital in there. And again,
[21:41] Cheryl White:
as a franchisor, it’s kind of looking at the calibre of franchises that you want to invest in the business.
[21:48] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah. Okay. You mentioned the budget, sorry, the
[21:55] Darren Jamieson:
franchise fee is used partly for marketing as well. That’s an area I’m particularly interested in. What types
[22:04] Darren Jamieson:
of marketing does Apollo do for its franchises to help them get more business?
[22:09] Cheryl White:
So we have a national marketing fund. Every franchise should have a national marketing fund and the franchisee is responsible for their
[22:17] Cheryl White:
local marketing and a franchisor is responsible for national marketing campaigns. So the national marketing contribution is put into by all of
[22:26] Cheryl White:
the franchises and the franchisor and that can be used for national marketing initiatives. So it could be, you know, I’m just trying to think of something we do.
[22:34] Cheryl White:
Oh yes. So we’re on a marketing platform that we use called LSI and that actually brings in private client referrals to my
[22:41] Cheryl White:
teams and the website maintenance is all through that as well. All of the franchises have their own domain names so that they can build their websites and the CRM systems and stuff on that.
[22:52] Cheryl White:
From the point of a new franchisee coming on board, so they come and do an initial residential
[23:00] Cheryl White:
training with us and then our support manager Don will help them with their marketing. So they’re given a territory area that they can trade as in Apollo
[23:08] Cheryl White:
and that’s got sort of the marketing hotspots on it. So we’ve had the whole of the UK demographically mapped out so we can see where the sort of over
[23:17] Cheryl White:
65s are, where the other care companies are and we use that for the marketing campaigns. We’ve gone back to traditional marketing a lot now as well.
[23:27] Cheryl White:
Leaflet dropping is working really well, but if we concentrate on one postcode area. So what we’re saying is, you know, we provide you with 10,000
[23:35] Cheryl White:
leaflets. Rather than giving them out, do a thousand leaflets in one area 10 times because that’s going to have a better hit than throwing it all at the wall and
[23:43] Cheryl White:
seeing what happens with it. And also we have a marketing lady who comes in, she goes to their area and
[23:52] Cheryl White:
physically goes out and teaches them how to network in their area, how to speak to GPs, how to speak to social
[24:00] Cheryl White:
workers, all the different things. So, there’s lots of different aspects to the marketing that we do within Apollo. Obviously, I can’t go
[24:07] Cheryl White:
into too much detail because it’s very Apolloised, you know, and we have certain packages that we talk about when we’re marketing and what makes us
[24:14] Cheryl White:
different from other care companies. But there’s a range of marketing activities that we do within Apollo.
[24:22] Darren Jamieson:
Does Apollo make any promises to the franchises or any guarantees of how many leads that they’re going to provide them?
[24:29] Cheryl White:
We’re not allowed. We can’t do that as part of BFA standards. You’ve got to be very careful of what you, what you sort of, we can’t set prices. We can’t promise
[24:38] Cheryl White:
things. We can’t guarantee. We’ve got to keep everything quite general within the legal agreements as well. But what we can do is we can show the success of all the franchises.
[24:48] Cheryl White:
This has been a problem for a long time I think in franchising, that franchisors will come in and overpromise to people and it’s false.
[24:57] Cheryl White:
If somebody’s coming into the business, you’ve got to give them everything so that they’re making a really informed choice of whether they want to come on board or not.
[25:06] Cheryl White:
So even projection figures that we provide, we will show that sometimes some of our franchises will make a loss in year one because there’ll be
[25:14] Cheryl White:
reasons for that. They may have decided to hire an extra staff member or get a bigger office or whatever that might be, which is against our
[25:22] Cheryl White:
assumptions of what we would do, but there’s always reasons for that and you’ve got to be open and honest about it. And the reason that most
[25:29] Cheryl White:
franchisors end up in court is because of false representation. So they’ve got to be really, it’s just very unfair to
[25:37] Cheryl White:
the franchisee if you’re going to guarantee things that you can’t deliver on.
[25:45] Darren Jamieson:
I’m really pleased you said that to be honest with you because I’ve spoken to two different franchises of different franchises. I won’t name the franchises, but one’s an estate agent franchise.
[25:53] Cheryl White:
Yeah.
[25:54] Darren Jamieson:
The other one is an insurance claims handling franchise.
[25:59] Darren Jamieson:
And both franchises essentially exited the franchise because they were told they would get so much, so many
[26:07] Darren Jamieson:
leads, so many enquiries from the franchisor and they got absolutely nothing. They just had to do all the business generation themselves and that
[26:14] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
they were overpromised what they were given. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not fair.
[26:20] Cheryl White:
Well, you know, people will invest their life savings into things, you know, and you should take that really seriously.
[26:24] Cheryl White:
We’ve got an amazing team. I’ve got a brilliant national office team and our team, what we could call our associated experts of lawyers,
[26:32] Cheryl White:
marketers, accountants, all of those things. And Dom, our support manager, really supports the teams in
[26:39] Cheryl White:
getting new client referrals in. But we will never ever guarantee because you can’t. You just can’t. It’s not ethical to do that.
[26:48] Darren Jamieson:
No, it’s not. From our perspective at Engage Web, our biggest client is a franchisor.
[26:55] Darren Jamieson:
So we do the marketing for a franchise company that’s based in New York and we do their marketing for the UK,
[27:03] Darren Jamieson:
Canada, Australia and the United States.
[27:05] Darren Jamieson:
It’s about a thousand franchises in total and we’ve exhibited at the National Franchise Exhibition in the NEC in
[27:12] Darren Jamieson:
Birmingham two years running and we found the fundamental difference between American franchises and UK
[27:21] Darren Jamieson:
franchises, because we’ve spoken to quite a lot of them, is that the American franchisors are fundamentally interested in growing the business of the franchises.
[27:30] Cheryl White:
Yeah.
[27:30] Darren Jamieson:
Whereas the British franchisors that we’ve spoken to really were only looking to sell to new franchises.
[27:40] Darren Jamieson:
That was their core focus, whereas marketing for the franchises and growing their business wasn’t something they were particularly interested in.
[27:49] Darren Jamieson:
Wondering what your take on that was as a franchise consultant.
[27:54] Cheryl White:
That surprises me because, you know, from our point of view we take a percentage of a franchisee’s turnover every month. So it’s within our interest
[28:03] Cheryl White:
for that franchisee to grow. And we are very invested in our franchises.
[28:09] Cheryl White:
We do an awful lot to help and support. Some of them have, you know, their children have grown up alongside.
[28:14] Cheryl White:
We know them very, very well. We know them as individuals and we’ll always be like that. So, we are very invested in their growth and we put a lot of time and effort into helping them with that.
[28:24] Cheryl White:
You know, we look at their P and Ls every month with them, like my finance director Jules will look at that and we’ll do cost analysis. We’ll do such a lot with them to help them to grow.
[28:35] Cheryl White:
The only reason I could think of why they would do that is that they’re on a flat rate marketing, you know,
[28:42] Cheryl White:
monthly, sorry, monthly commission.
[28:45] Cheryl White:
So, it might be that they don’t take a percentage. They may just take, I don’t know, a thousand pounds a month. But it’s still, again, it’s just not ethical for me. If they’re coming in as a
[28:53] Cheryl White:
support, they should be supporting their teams with their marketing. So it’s like a couple of years ago, I thought,
[29:00] Cheryl White:
you know what, our teams are doing such good work and nobody sees it.
[29:03] Cheryl White:
They don’t shout about it because they’re just heads down and they’re doing what they’re doing. So I then hired a videographer, Stu, who’s been
[29:11] Cheryl White:
with me for two years now. And he literally goes out and videos the teams and the videos he produces are just Apollo right the way through them. They’re amazing.
[29:20] Cheryl White:
And the difference that’s made to my teams who are looking for those private client referrals has been
[29:27] Cheryl White:
huge. So we’re always looking for ways to help the franchises to grow. And it’s really sad that you found that,
[29:35] Cheryl White:
but I have come across franchisors like that too.
[29:40] Cheryl White:
And really, you know, you shouldn’t be relying on your initial fees to grow your business. Your initial fee is to get your franchisee into business. What
[29:47] Cheryl White:
your business will grow on is those reoccurring percentages of what your franchises are delivering.
[29:55] Darren Jamieson:
It may have just been bad luck with the ones we spoke to to be honest with you.
[29:58] Cheryl White:
Yeah. Are you there this year at the NEC?
[30:01] Darren Jamieson:
No. No. No, we don’t do it now because of those experiences. It just seems to be American franchisors are the ones that we have success with.
[30:09] Darren Jamieson:
I think you see it on Dragon’s Den a lot that a business will go to Dragon’s Den and their plan is to franchise the business and they’ll be quite open about it. They’ll say,
[30:19] Darren Jamieson:
“We’re looking to franchise. We’re looking to grow to 18, 20 franchises and then we want to sell it.” And that’s their goal. And it’s clear from then
[30:28] Darren Jamieson:
that they’re not really looking at the return from the franchises. They’re not looking at the percentage or the commission. They’re looking to sell to franchises and then sell the business.
[30:36] Darren Jamieson:
So it may be that the ones we’ve spoken to in the UK are relatively new and that’s their focus as opposed to a
[30:45] Darren Jamieson:
more established franchise that is looking to expand and help their franchises make more money.
[30:50] Cheryl White:
Well, that’s it. And, you know, every business owner looks to sell. I mean,
[30:53] Cheryl White:
I’ll sell Apollo eventually. I’ve run it now for 16 years, you know, so eventually I will sell it, but you enjoy the journey on the way as well.
[31:02] Cheryl White:
Like now, I had a meeting with my team this morning and we’ve just been, you know, we do all of those
[31:08] Cheryl White:
one percent gains, one percent gains all of the time and we work with growth consultants to help us do that. We’ve just been looking at our new getting into business process that we developed. I think it
[31:16] Cheryl White:
was 18 months ago now. So, we’ve all just come together as a team and said,
[31:20] Cheryl White:
“Right, how can we make this one percent better on each section?” So that’s what we’re looking at all of the time and that’s the type of things that light me up
[31:27] Cheryl White:
because I think, you know, somebody coming into the business who’s spent potentially £100,000 to come into business with us, I want them to be
[31:35] Cheryl White:
wowed by the first three months and think, oh my god, this business is amazing, and then tell their friends about it.
[31:41] Cheryl White:
You know, that’s what we always say. So, working in the business as well, even though you are gearing up that
[31:48] Cheryl White:
business to eventually sell it, enjoy it. I look now at my franchises who are employing staff who
[31:56] Cheryl White:
are looking after clients and I think the impact that we have as a business is huge. We’re looking after thousands of clients every single day
[32:04] Cheryl White:
who are getting that really excellent care and fundamentally that’s what is important. That’s what’s
[32:11] Cheryl White:
important to us, that end client, their experience of what Apollo is. And when I do eventually come
[32:18] Cheryl White:
to sell the business, I’ll make sure it’s given in, you know, whoever takes over the reins will have that ethos there as well.
[32:25] Darren Jamieson:
I’ve got a couple of questions there. I don’t know which one to ask first.
[32:29] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
How many franchises are there at the moment with Apollo? At the moment, we’ve got 15 teams. And whereabouts across the UK,
[32:37] Cheryl White:
are they sort of spread? So, yeah, so they’re mainly northwest.
[32:40] Cheryl White:
We’ve got some down south as well. We’ve got one over in Wales. We’ve got a marketing plan in place now and we’re going to increase that to 40 to 45 by 2030.
[32:52] Cheryl White:
So very, you know, we’ve grown very strategically. And it’s interesting. I was talking to somebody the other day and he knows
[33:00] Cheryl White:
somebody who set a care company up in 2019 and he said, “Oh, he’s got 35 franchises.” And I said, “Yeah.”
[33:07] Cheryl White:
“It’s interesting,” I said, “because I know his ops manager and they’re having lots and lots of issues.” I said so don’t try and scale too quickly. Just scale.
[33:18] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
Yeah. Scale and support.
[33:20] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah. You can scale too quickly. I mean that’s a big worry I think with franchising, to franchise your own business as a
[33:28] Darren Jamieson:
business owner, to franchise your business. The more franchises you take, the more you scale, is that you lose that control.
[33:35] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah, and you potentially lose the quality that you have yourself and someone else has to copy your procedures
[33:42] Darren Jamieson:
and basically act for your business and be your business. How do you get over that fear as a franchise consultant with
[33:49] Darren Jamieson:
business owners that want to do it, that they’re losing control and their brand and that something could go wrong that they have no control over themselves?
[33:56] Cheryl White:
I think it’s just being very choosy, Darren, about who you bring in. Don’t give your franchise to somebody who waves the initial fee cheque at you,
[34:03] Cheryl White:
you know, and that’s something that people do. I done that in the first couple of years because I didn’t know any better.
[34:11] Cheryl White:
And, you know, some of those franchises we’ve now exited out of the business. Some are still with me and they’re great, but some aren’t. So it’s being really choosy about who you
[34:19] Cheryl White:
bring in as a franchisee. Are they going to grow the business? Do they want multiple sites?
[34:24] Cheryl White:
Whatever that looks like to you, but do they fit culturally as well? Are they who the brand is looking for? And I can normally tell within five
[34:32] Cheryl White:
seconds of speaking to someone whether they’re going to fit into the business or not. And if they’re not going to be a good fit, then it’s okay to say no.
[34:40] Cheryl White:
Because again, as you’ve said, fundamentally, you’re responsible for looking after that brand. And especially a care brand,
[34:46] Cheryl White:
you’ve got to be really careful about what people are doing.
[34:50] Cheryl White:
And again, having really good systems in place. So we have sort of performance matrix, we have regular audits, we have all of the things to make sure the
[34:58] Cheryl White:
franchises are doing what they should be doing.
[35:01] Darren Jamieson:
So how does Apollo work as a care brand briefly because I’ve used care myself for my mother when she went into a care home, but what’s the
[35:10] Darren Jamieson:
difference between Apollo and say Promedica or Home Instead?
[35:16] Cheryl White:
So Apollo, we obviously do the same type of job. So we look after people in their own homes. But what we do
[35:24] Cheryl White:
is we provide a real holistic care package. I was a district nurse and palliative care nurse before I started Apollo.
[35:31] Cheryl White:
So I’ve done this a very long time. So what makes Apollo different is the people and I always say that to anyone who asks. You know, we’ve got the
[35:39] Cheryl White:
most amazing franchises. We’ve got fabulous care staff. The whole team are great. And we’re always looking at how
[35:47] Cheryl White:
we can not just improve things for the franchises, but what we can do for the clients as well. We’re always looking at different services that we can offer.
[35:55] Cheryl White:
People always describe us as the Apollo family because we are, we’re very hands-on as a head office team.
[36:03] Cheryl White:
Clients that we get and we look after, they can’t give us enough testimonials. It’s great.
[36:10] Cheryl White:
When you watch the videos with Stu, you can really see that shine through from the clients that we’re looking after.
[36:17] Darren Jamieson:
So, you have people and they go into people’s homes for a set number of hours per day or set number of hours per week. Is that right?
[36:24] Cheryl White:
Yeah. Yeah. We’ve just launched a new live-in care service as well where we provide carers that go
[36:31] Cheryl White:
in to live with clients as well if they don’t want to go into residential so that they’re there all of the time.
[36:37] Cheryl White:
And Apollo, we’ll never grow huge. We just don’t want that.
[36:41] Cheryl White:
We want to grow, we want to scale, we want to deliver as much care as we can,
[36:45] Cheryl White:
but we’ll never become one of the big corporate companies because that’s not who we are at all.
[36:51] Darren Jamieson:
But, of course, when you eventually exit the business and sell it, it’s possible somebody like Home Instead or Promedica
[36:59] Darren Jamieson:
would be the kind of company that would merge or take over with it.
[37:03] Cheryl White:
Possibly. But that would be my decision. Of course I want to sell, you know, so I don’t, you know, I have had this discussion before
[37:11] Cheryl White / Darren Jamieson:
and I don’t think it would be to another corporate company I’d sell to. But you must have someone in
[37:18] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
mind that you’re thinking that’s the kind of person I’d like to… I have a few, well yeah, a few people have approached me over the last couple of
[37:26] Cheryl White:
years over selling and they do keep in regular touch with me to see what’s happening and what’s going on within the businesses, but I do have an ideal
[37:34] Cheryl White:
person in mind, an actual ideal person. So, we’ll have to just wait and see. See what happens. I’m not ready yet.
[37:41] Darren Jamieson:
Not ready yet. Have you spoken to that person?
[37:44] Cheryl White:
Yes, I have. Not about sale, I’ve never spoken to them about sale, but if I was going to sell to someone, they would be the person. So,
[37:52] Cheryl White:
there’s a couple of options there, but they are already involved in Apollo.
[37:56] Cheryl White:
So, it’s not like they don’t know the business.
[37:57] Darren Jamieson:
Ah, right. Okay. So, that’s the best way to do it, I think.
[38:02] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah, because it’s very popular at the moment as an exit strategy to do employee ownership trust.
[38:09] Darren Jamieson:
So you sell to the team because it’s more tax efficient. Although the government has just pissed a little bit on that. It’s more tax efficient to do that.
[38:16] Darren Jamieson:
And of course you keep people within the business. You ensure the survival of all the employees within the business because if you sell to someone else external, you don’t know what’s going to happen.
[38:24] Cheryl White:
No. No. And that’s it. And I’ve built this from an idea, you know, so it becomes really important to you.
[38:33] Darren Jamieson:
So, as a franchise consultant, as the other part of your business, what sort of companies have you helped franchise?
[38:40] Cheryl White:
Lots of companies. So, I only work with three businesses a year to franchise because I’m just too busy with Apollo. And I always look
[38:49] Cheryl White:
at the businesses. I can probably franchise the majority of them. But what I do is I look and say, right, if I franchise this business for someone,
[38:56] Cheryl White:
what impact is it going to make? Is it going to make an impact on other people’s lives? So at the
[39:04] Cheryl White:
moment, just as an example, I’m working with a mobile physiotherapy service. I’m working with a menopause coach.
[39:12] Cheryl White:
And that’s online and offline that she does that. And I’m working with a networking company. So, they’re the three that I’m working with at the moment.
[39:21] Darren Jamieson:
Networking.
[39:22] Cheryl White:
Yeah. Networking company, that’s getting more and more. I’ve got another lady who wants to come on next when I’ve got space who does networking.
[39:30] Cheryl White:
So it’s all different businesses. I’ve franchised spiritual businesses,
[39:35] Cheryl White:
bricks and mortar, fitness, all sorts of different businesses.
[39:40] Darren Jamieson:
Is there any type of business you think can’t franchise?
[39:44] Cheryl White:
I think if a business is very, very reliant on the owner, you know, so if you’ve got a business who
[39:52] Cheryl White:
so just an example is somebody once come to me who does sort of face painting and children’s parties and I was like the
[39:59] Cheryl White:
business relies on every booking you do so it’s not really something that you could scale I don’t think. So I had to say no to that one. So looking at it,
[40:09] Cheryl White:
you know, I need to make sure that it’s sustainable and it can be replicated. So Apollo, you know, when I was looking at
[40:16] Cheryl White:
franchising Apollo, I had to take my ego out of the way and say, okay, I founded Apollo and I’ve grown Apollo, but Apollo
[40:24] Cheryl White:
in another area could grow without me in it. So, you know, and some of the places that we
[40:32] Cheryl White:
are, especially sort of down south, they don’t know who I am. None of the clients know who I am. None of the care staff know who I am.
[40:39] Cheryl White:
It’s the franchisee. They’re the face.
[40:43] Darren Jamieson:
There’s a question that’s been on my mind since we started this podcast interview and I’ve got to ask it. Apollo, did you name the business?
[40:53] Cheryl White:
Yeah. Yeah. So, there is a story behind that as well.
[40:57] Darren Jamieson:
Okay. Go on. Because, you know, Apollo is a Greek god and he’s done some bad things.
[41:03] Cheryl White:
He has. But, so I love Greek mythology. I love anything Greece. So I was in Greece and I
[41:11] Cheryl White:
was thinking about the business. I was thinking what can I call it?
[41:14] Cheryl White:
So this is what I was thinking before I’d even started it. And I was on a boat called Apollo.
[41:19] Cheryl White:
So when I Googled Apollo, Apollo is actually one of the Greek gods of light. Yeah. He’s a shining god.
[41:26] Cheryl White:
Yeah. He’s a shining god and he’s a healing god. If you look more into him,
[41:30] Cheryl White:
he is actually a healing god as well. So I was like, okay. So he’s the god of healing and light. So that’s where Apollo came from.
[41:40] Cheryl White:
And then my consultancy business is called Mercury Franchise School and Mercury was the Greek god of business and finance. Although I’m coming away
[41:48] Cheryl White:
from the name Mercury now and just doing it into my own brand name. But that’s where Apollo came from. It was, I was actually on a Greek holiday and I came
[41:57] Cheryl White:
back and I thought yeah, actually I like it and it’s an A so we’ll be at the top of everyone’s list.
[42:04] Darren Jamieson:
That old marketing technique. Yeah. Aardvark and Sons.
[42:14] Darren Jamieson:
So what’s the, going to ask a question now that you might not be able to answer. What’s the most successful company that you’ve helped franchise?
[42:25] Cheryl White:
Oh,
[42:25] Cheryl White:
I think, do you know what, one of the most successful companies and she actually sold seven franchises before we’d even finished working together
[42:34] Cheryl White:
was a decluttering company. So she helps people, she goes into people’s homes and helps to declutter their house or their
[42:41] Cheryl White:
wardrobe or anything they want to be decluttered and they work around their mental health as well. So she says
[42:50] Cheryl White:
that when people clutter and hoard it’s because they’ve got a mental health problem. Something’s happened to them where they need to surround
[42:58] Cheryl White:
themselves with all of these things to feel safe.
[43:01] Cheryl White / Darren Jamieson:
So she goes in and she does that and she’s been really, really successful with it. Wow. What’s the name of that business?
[43:09] Cheryl White:
It’s called Tidy Mind. Tidy Mind. Yeah.
[43:15] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
And who’s the lady that runs that? That was ages ago. Her name was Kate, the lady who runs it.
[43:22] Darren Jamieson:
That sounds brilliant.
[43:22] Cheryl White:
Yeah. And I loved it. As soon as she came to me with the idea, I was like, “Oh my god, we need to get this out there.” And she’s
[43:30] Cheryl White:
just done so well with it because that’s really popular, decluttering. I mean, there’s so many TV shows about that sort of thing.
[43:37] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
Yeah. But what I loved about hers was that she looked at the mental health aspect of it as well. And again, when I talk about, you know, impact,
[43:45] Cheryl White:
that’s the type of businesses I like to work with.
[43:48] Darren Jamieson:
But, no, that’s very true because I thought maybe we’re talking about the same person. I’ve recorded a podcast interview with a lady that does decluttering.
[43:56] Darren Jamieson:
She’s based not far from you. Her name’s Karina Vine.
[44:00] Darren Jamieson:
And we talked about the psychological impact of having clutter because I confess I am self-confessed, I’m a bit of a hoarder.
[44:09] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
I’ve got lots of stuff, but I also get depressed by clutter. Yeah.
[44:14] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
Which is a problem when I keep buying… Yeah. Yeah.
[44:18] Darren Jamieson:
When I see it all sort of, oh no, it pisses me off. So, you clear it all away and you think, “Oh, that feels a bit better.” But then you just make the same mistake again. So, yeah, it’s
[44:26] Darren Jamieson:
really interesting, the psychology between clutter and depression and how it makes you feel.
[44:35] Cheryl White:
And I’m the complete opposite. I like everything tidy. Everything has a place. I’ve got two sons who drive me insane because they just leave everything everywhere.
[44:41] Cheryl White:
And yeah, honestly my biggest asset in my whole life is that my cleaner comes in twice a week. And even
[44:49] Cheryl White:
though I tidy up and I do what I do, she comes in and literally deep cleans everywhere twice a week because I don’t like mess. Like it.
[44:57] Darren Jamieson:
Wow.
[44:57] Cheryl White:
Yeah. Because it makes me feel, you know, if I’m sat doing, so if I’m sat doing something like this and I’m chatting and I know something needs
[45:06] Cheryl White:
doing, I can’t concentrate. It’s just, that’s how I am. I’m very organised.
[45:11] Cheryl White:
I can understand that. And when I was a district nurse, I used to go into people’s houses where literally there was like a pathway to get to the person
[45:18] Cheryl White:
because there’d be that much clutter and it was always people with mental health problems that had houses like that and there was always something that had
[45:27] Cheryl White:
triggered it. So, when Kate asked me to work with her, yeah, I mean she was probably one of the very first
[45:34] Cheryl White:
people I worked with to help franchise about 10 years ago now. And I was so impressed by what she did and could see that need for it.
[45:44] Darren Jamieson:
I’m trying to think what sort of skills would you be looking for in someone to become a franchisee of a decluttering business? Presumably not me. I imagine
[45:52] Darren Jamieson:
it wouldn’t be me. I just throw everything out.
[45:55] Cheryl White:
I think it would be somebody, you’d have to have somebody very empathetic who could sit and talk and, no,
[46:02] Cheryl White:
sometimes it might be just like they might throw like three things away in like a month, but for them that’s a massive big thing, you know.
[46:09] Cheryl White:
But it could not, you know, she said it’s not always that. It can be somebody who’s just really busy and they say, you know what, I haven’t decluttered my
[46:17] Cheryl White:
kitchen cupboards for two years. Can somebody just come in and do them for me? So, there’s different ends of the scale.
[46:23] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah. I constantly catch myself putting something down when I walk in the front door. I’ve got like a shelf, a window shelf to the right. I put something down and say, “I’ll put that there for now.”
[46:32] Darren Jamieson:
And I hear myself saying it. I’ll just put that there for now. And I know that’s going to be there in three weeks time.
[46:38] Darren Jamieson:
But I just can’t stop myself doing it. I know I’m doing it, but it’s just not.
[46:43] Cheryl White:
It’s like I put the boys’ football boots and trainers on the stairs thinking that they’ll take them up.
[46:51] Cheryl White:
And then in the end, I get them and take them up. So I think why don’t I just do it as soon, because I know they’re never going to do it because I always do it.
[46:57] Darren Jamieson:
So, and what’s, say what’s your, I asked for the most successful, but have
[47:05] Darren Jamieson:
you got a favourite business that you franchised other than that one?
[47:11] Cheryl White:
Yeah, I have. So I franchised a lady’s business last year. She’s Wirral based.
[47:16] Cheryl White:
And it’s called New Balm. She’s based in Oxton Village and she does
[47:23] Cheryl White:
holistic therapies. She’s just opened a CIC on the Wirral as well where she helps, she cooks
[47:30] Cheryl White:
nutritious food for people who can’t afford to eat properly and nutritious food, so she does
[47:38] Cheryl White:
lots of charity work, but she’s got a beautiful salon in Oxton Village as well and I franchised that last year and I love franchising that. She makes all of her own products as well.
[47:49] Darren Jamieson:
Very, very clever.
[47:51] Darren Jamieson:
Oh, she makes her own products but she’s franchised?
[48:00] Cheryl White:
So she makes all of her own treatments, all of her own oils and creams and sort of that that the therapists use. So she’s franchised the business now. So what they’ll,
[48:05] Cheryl White:
you know, so the franchisees will use her products as well.
[48:10] Darren Jamieson:
All right. So the franchises don’t have to make the product.
[48:12] Cheryl White:
No, no. They buy her products to use in their salons.
[48:17] Cheryl White:
So yeah, I really enjoyed franchising that. She’s lovely and I also love the ethos behind the business as well.
[48:26] Darren Jamieson:
Before you started, so you mentioned that you were a nurse. Did you run any business before you started Apollo?
[48:32] Cheryl White:
No, I was just on maternity leave with one of my sons who’s now 18 and I was thinking, do you know what? I need
[48:39] Cheryl White:
to do something about the state of the home care on Wirral because I just couldn’t get good home care providers at all for my patients. And I thought,
[48:49] Cheryl White:
what if I done it myself? What if I just built a little business? Had about 30 clients and still nursed a couple of days a week. That was the plan.
[48:58] Cheryl White:
And I did it. It took me three years to build the business and to get it ready to start. And I did and I launched the business. Took
[49:06] Cheryl White:
me about five months to get the first clients in. And then it just snowballed from there.
[49:12] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
So you saw a need basically, you saw a gap in the market and you thought… Saw a gap in the market, started it, absolutely winged it for the first
[49:20] Cheryl White:
couple of years, was really stressed, didn’t know what I was doing, up all night doing rotas for staff and all
[49:28] Cheryl White:
of the things. But, you know, I would say that was probably the hardest couple of years of my life doing
[49:35] Cheryl White:
it because it was so intense and, you know, as the business grew so did the problems. We needed more staff and then we needed more people and then
[49:42] Cheryl White:
we needed more. It was just, you know, that’s how it grew. It grew.
[49:47] Darren Jamieson:
So, you must have hit that point that a lot of business owners face at some point that I’m going to have to scale this myself or franchise.
[49:54] Cheryl White:
Yeah. So, I went in to see my accountant and she said to me, I said, “I just can’t cope with the demands. I don’t know what to do. We’ve got, you know, people are wanting us to deliver care,
[50:03] Cheryl White:
but we haven’t got enough people and blah blah.” And she said to me, “Have you ever thought about franchising it?”
[50:07] Cheryl White:
And I was like, “Don’t know.” Anyway, I didn’t even know what she meant. So when I got in the car and Googled what is franchising, read it, and me being me
[50:14] Cheryl White:
thought right, I need to find the money to do it. So I did and I franchised it and I’ve never looked back.
[50:21] Darren Jamieson:
Wow. So who was your first franchisee?
[50:24] Cheryl White:
Two of my care staff who are still with me today. So two senior care staff. They approached me and said we’d love to buy into a franchise. One owns South Wirral
[50:33] Cheryl White:
and one owns West Wirral. And they’ve been with me for 12 years now into their third franchise agreement.
[50:40] Darren Jamieson:
And when you’re dividing up the franchise areas because you mentioned South Wirral, West Wirral, and presumably you’re still…
[50:50] Cheryl White:
I don’t have Wirral anymore, but there is a team. I’ve sold that as a franchise.
[50:50] Darren Jamieson:
Right. Oh, so you, okay. So, you’re just in charge of overseeing.
[50:54] Darren Jamieson:
How do you divide up the areas? Is it a headcount, a property count?
[50:58] Cheryl White:
Yeah. So we guarantee over 25,000 over 65s in one area. But I’ve had the whole of the UK mapped out using a
[51:07] Cheryl White:
company called Atlas Mapping. They were amazing. So we can give people a demographic link. So if somebody comes in and says this is the area they’re
[51:14] Cheryl White:
interested in, we give them the demographic link for Apollo. Then they can go in and they can see what their area looks like. We do it on
[51:23] Cheryl White:
over 65s, but we do actually look after anybody over the age of 18. So it’s,
[51:30] Cheryl White:
you know, but we had to pick a demographic. It would have been too vast with that, so we have picked over 65s on the demographic chart.
[51:40] Cheryl White:
But what we have figured out, you know, we do a lot around pricing and cash flows as I was
[51:48] Cheryl White:
talking about before and we’ve worked out that to have a million pound turnover business a year you need 46
[51:56] Cheryl White:
clients having a couple of hours of care each day at the pricing that we would recommend to have that, you know, so they’ve got more than enough in there.
[52:06] Cheryl White:
So what we’d want them to do is open different offices within that area to really utilise it.
[52:12] Darren Jamieson / Cheryl White:
So how many offices would they need to have a million pound turnover business? They only need one office for that.
[52:19] Darren Jamieson:
Oh, right. Okay. Wow. Is that the goal you set franchises, that you can have a million pound turnover business and this is what you need to do to get there?
[52:27] Cheryl White:
You can do. Yeah. Yeah. So we say to them, and we’ve got this from fact, you know, from other franchises, that by year
[52:35] Cheryl White:
three you can have a million pound turnover business. And then obviously looking at the gross and nets with them is something that we work with around
[52:44] Cheryl White:
pricing and what they’re paying the staff and all of the things that we support them with. And again, sort of new people coming into the
[52:51] Cheryl White:
sector or new people coming into business, they wouldn’t even consider that, you know. So again, that’s why we’ve got the team there to be saying,
[52:58] Cheryl White:
okay, you maybe you’re turning over a million, but what’s your gross and your net looking like? They’re more important.
[53:05] Darren Jamieson:
Yeah. As Theo Paphitis always said,
[53:07] Darren Jamieson:
turnover is vanity. Get it right round.
[53:14] Cheryl White:
But, you know, you’ve got to have a good, I agree with what he said. But I think if you’ve got a
[53:21] Cheryl White:
business that’s turning over a million pounds a year,
[53:26] Cheryl White:
no matter what, even if the profit margins are low, there’s room to work on it. You know, you can always work on it.
[53:32] Cheryl White:
There’s always ways you can increase that net and increase that growth. But what you want to do is you want to be bringing in the clients, holding on to
[53:39] Cheryl White:
the clients and getting that reoccurring revenue and then start to look at your other factors to really sort of play with your margins.
[53:47] Darren Jamieson:
Do you know, it’s so refreshing to hear a franchisor talk like that.
[53:52] Cheryl White / Darren Jamieson:
Yeah, I love it. I can see that you love it. That’s great. And it’s great for other people listening to this who are thinking about being franchises.
[54:01] Darren Jamieson:
Not only do you pick the right people, that you help them, you look after them, you help them grow, but you also make sure that their profit is there as well, so they’re doing it right. That’s fantastic to see.
[54:10] Cheryl White:
Yeah.
[54:11] Darren Jamieson:
But anyone listening to this that’s thinking, you know what, I’d love to be a franchisee or I’d love to find out more. What’s the best way for them to get in touch with you?
[54:19] Cheryl White:
So, to find out about Apollo, the best way is to go into the website which is www.apollocare.co.uk
[54:27] Cheryl White:
and then there’s a franchise button on there. If you press that, it’ll give you more information about the franchising opportunity and you’re able
[54:35] Cheryl White:
to book a call with one of my team on there as well. We don’t use sales teams. They’re all part of the team, the people that you’d be speaking to on
[54:42] Cheryl White:
there. And if you are interested in franchising your business, if you go to my website, which is cherylwhite.co.uk
[54:51] Cheryl White:
and that tells you all about how I can support you with franchising your business as well.
[54:56] Darren Jamieson:
That’s brilliant. I will pop both of those links below the podcast. So, if you’re watching this on YouTube, it’s in the description. If you are listening to
[55:03] Darren Jamieson:
it on iTunes, Spotify, Audible, Amazon Music, or any of the others, scroll down. It is in the show notes below the podcast. So, Cheryl, thank you very much
[55:12] Darren Jamieson:
for being a guest on The Engaging Marketeer.
