[00:14] Darren Jamieson:
On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking with Scott Walker, who worked in the legal profession and now works for the legal profession, helping lawyers and solicitors become more confident and better speakers.
Why would solicitors need more confidence? Let’s find out from Scott how he does that, how he markets his business and the kinds of people he helps.
You describe yourself as an introverted lawyer. What exactly is an introverted lawyer?
[00:47] Scott Walker:
That’s a great question to start with. I’ve had a long journey with this, actually. It’s funny you should mention it because I did a TEDx talk last November on this very topic: why the world needs introverted lawyers.
An introverted lawyer is somebody who recognises their unique strengths as an introvert. For me, I realised I was able to help clients more easily and in a better way by listening and tapping into some of those natural abilities of an introvert.
Certainly, there’s the listening side and the empathy side. Everybody, whether introverted or extroverted, is perfectly able and capable of being empathetic. However, from my experience, I’ve learned that it’s there naturally to a degree, for want of a better word.
I was able to tap into it more because I understood it better and understood what it actually meant. That’s probably a long-winded answer.
[02:24] Darren Jamieson:
What’s the fundamental distinction between an introvert and an extrovert?
The reason I ask is that, as I understand it, an introvert gets energy and power from within, whereas an extrovert gets energy and power from other people.
I’ve taken tests along these lines before. I did one—I forget the name of it—which used a wheel and tested your assertiveness, confidence and various other things. My empathy came out at 1%.
I’ve always thought of myself as an extrovert because I like to be on a stage and in front of other people. I get more energy when I perform in front of other people, hence running this podcast.
However, I also really like to be alone, and I don’t like situations where I have to make small talk with people. I hate one-to-ones. No offence regarding this podcast, but I hate talking to people on a one-to-one level because you’ve really got to concentrate and listen. I find it very taxing.
What exactly is the difference?
[03:30] Scott Walker:
It is very much about energy. Typically, that’s where the definitions lie.
Introverts get their energy from having quiet time, being alone and spending less time with people. We still need some connection because it’s a human instinct to want to connect with others.
[04:01] Darren Jamieson:
Absolutely.
[04:03] Scott Walker:
From my experience as an introvert, that connection is more likely to be on a one-to-one basis.
The energy definition is absolutely spot-on. For extroverts, it’s the reverse. They get their energy from being with people and they like lots of connection.
There is a scale. I don’t think any of us sits neatly at one end of the spectrum. You couldn’t be a pure introvert, for want of a better word. You sit somewhere along that scale.
Other terminology has been developed over the years. An ambivert is somebody who has a mixture of both. There are also terms for people who can switch between the two.
It’s always adapting and evolving. It depends on our environment, what we’re doing and the people we’re with.
From the experiences I’ve had, both personally and professionally, I’ve realised what it means to be an introvert in the working world. That’s where you begin to identify some of the natural strengths I speak about.
Really, it’s about self-awareness. It’s connected to who we are, how we like to show up and what our personality style is.
[05:48] Darren Jamieson:
There will be a lot of people who are introverts, perhaps teenagers or even younger, who think, “I’m never going to be able to go to a business meeting, stand up and talk in front of people or give a presentation.”
I remember being at university and having to give a presentation in front of the whole year. Some of us, like me, threw ourselves into it. Others were so nervous that some didn’t even turn up. They avoided it.
The question I’m getting to is that some really famous performers, such as Michael Jackson—I mention him because I’m going to see the film with my daughter today—were introverts, even though they performed on stage in front of tens or hundreds of thousands of people.
How can introverts get over being introverted to do a performance like that?
You delivered a TEDx talk. As an introvert, you were standing in front of people with cameras and an audience. Once the clock starts and you hit that red spot, you can’t have a do-over. You can’t go back and start again. All the pressure is on you.
How were you able to do that?
[07:03] Scott Walker:
I think there are a couple of things. I find this so interesting because you’re right: there are so many great speakers who are introverted, both throughout history and currently.
For me, one part has been acceptance, which connects to the self-awareness piece. It’s about really understanding exactly what introversion means for me as a person, because it will be different for everybody, and then accepting that.
Coming from the legal profession in particular, I always thought I had to be somebody else. I thought I had to be performing. I masked a lot, and I still do to some extent.
I think that was because of what the profession and society were expecting. The legal profession, in particular, was seen as a very extroverted profession.
It wasn’t until I thought, “Actually, I’m just going to accept who I am. This is who I am, and it doesn’t matter because we are all so different.”
That helped. It was almost an epiphany. I felt that if I could remove what was expected, I could simply show up and do some of the things I didn’t expect I could do myself.
Public speaking, training and lecturing are examples.
The other part is preparation. I think introverts can be quite detail-orientated, or some of us will be, which means we like to prepare. That helps so much when it comes to public speaking.
Everybody is different. Some people prefer to speak naturally and off the cuff. However, preparation helps relieve the nerves a little and at least gives you a starting point.
[09:23] Darren Jamieson:
Because you’re able to prepare so much, that gives you control, which fits into the introverted personality.
Even though you’re standing in front of people and talking, and anything could happen, chances are it won’t because you’ve prepared so much. You know exactly what you’re going to say and how the talk is going to go.
[09:41] Scott Walker:
Absolutely. Control is a great way of describing it.
It gives you that cushion and the ability to have something in the back of your mind, so you have an answer if you get stuck.
It doesn’t always work like that. From my experience, in some situations I’m actually quite good at not preparing and simply speaking off the cuff.
It depends on the subject matter and whether you’re talking about something you’re passionate about. That always helps, doesn’t it?
[10:24] Darren Jamieson:
Absolutely.
You’re also a professional public speaker. Did that come before the TEDx talk?
[10:34] Scott Walker:
It started before then, very much so. It began through lecturing.
I became a visiting lecturer for a university, and that led to more training and speaking, which eventually led to the TEDx talk.
[10:58] Darren Jamieson:
What was the application process like for the TEDx talk?
I’ve done one myself, and I didn’t get in the first time I applied. I had to apply a second time because the theme didn’t fit.
It can be quite rigorous in terms of how you deliver the talk. Some TEDx events can be very specific about making sure you say every word. They want to know exactly what you’re going to say.
What was your experience like?
[11:24] Scott Walker:
I count myself as quite lucky because I had the advantage that the TEDx event was organised by the University of Law, which is where I lecture.
They approached me, but there was still an application stage. We had an initial interview where we talked through potential subjects, and there were some standard questions.
It then went to a selection committee, which made the decisions about the speakers.
After being accepted, we needed to submit our scripts. We provided an outline and then a full script closer to the event. There were rehearsals and lots of support in between.
One of the good things, from my experience, was that the support was there if you needed it. You could talk things through or get some feedback.
It wasn’t quite as rigorous as some events I know of, and perhaps some you’ve experienced. As I say, I was a little bit lucky.
[12:50] Darren Jamieson:
The one I did was through Chester University. I think the ones that go through academia seem to be easier because, as you say, they often approach people within academia to take part. They’ll approach professors, alumni and students.
When I did mine, one of the professors went first, and he didn’t want to do it. He was being made to do it by the university.
Although you’re not supposed to go up there with notes, he went up and read the whole thing because he said, “If I’m going to be made to do it, I’m going to do it how I want to do it.”
He went first, read it, and then he was off. He was gone. It was a very strange experience.
How have you found that doing a TEDx talk has helped you with your professional speaking? Has it been something you’ve been able to trade off?
[13:44] Scott Walker:
It has absolutely helped me from a learning perspective and in getting better at public speaking.
I find it difficult to put the whole experience into words. It was a goal of mine, so actually doing it was great, but the whole process was challenging.
It made me think a lot about speaking and communicating. It also gave me the prompt to seek some help.
I got some help preparing the TEDx talk, and I’m so happy I did because it helped me understand professional speaking a bit more.
It helped me get my ideas into a talk that made sense and would hopefully have some impact.
As a learning experience, it’s been amazing. I’ve used the skills I developed from it ever since.
As with anything, we’re constantly learning, adapting, trying new things and trying new material. It will be a lifelong process.
[15:24] Darren Jamieson:
Is it something you would recommend to anyone looking to become a public or professional speaker? Is doing a TEDx talk definitely worth it?
[15:34] Scott Walker:
One hundred per cent.
I would recommend it so much because going through that process and having the whole experience is worth it.
It is a challenge, as you’ll know, but it is very rewarding.
[15:58] Darren Jamieson:
How pleased were you with how the talk went in the end?
[16:02] Scott Walker:
On the day, I was pleased. I remember feeling that I delivered it as well as I could.
Compared with my rehearsals and practice, I delivered it much better on the day than I had in any of the rehearsals. That felt good.
I haven’t watched it back yet.
[16:35] Darren Jamieson:
You’ve really not watched it back?
[16:37] Scott Walker:
I haven’t. I know!
I’ve probably watched the first few minutes. I think I got to about three minutes in.
I’m not sure why. I think I’ve just been trying to find the right moment to pluck up the courage to watch it.
I know I need to so that I can see what I’m doing.
[17:00] Darren Jamieson:
You need to review your talk, criticise yourself and see what you could have done differently or what you would change.
I’ve watched mine back so many times.
Did you get professional photographs from it as well?
[17:18] Scott Walker:
Yes, they did some for us, which was really helpful.
I also had some footage from a few supporters in the crowd. They helped with some photos and footage as well.
[17:34] Darren Jamieson:
I’ve got mine on the back of a business card.
[17:38] Scott Walker:
Excellent. That’s a great idea.
[17:41] Darren Jamieson:
It has a QR code that you can scan to go straight to the video and watch the TEDx talk.
[17:47] Scott Walker:
Brilliant.
[17:50] Darren Jamieson:
It’s important that people watch it. You’ve got to get it out there.
In terms of your professional speaking now, what sort of gigs do you do, and how do you get the work?
[18:00] Scott Walker:
A lot of the work I do at the moment is virtual.
[18:08] Darren Jamieson:
Okay.
[18:10] Scott Walker:
I’ve certainly found that, in the legal space, there’s a lot of demand for virtual training and speaking.
There is a mixture, but I don’t think it has returned to its previous levels.
A lot of it is virtual. I also do a lot of associate-style work for well-known providers and organisations within the area of law I specialise in.
That has been a great way of becoming visible. It allows people to get to know me and the work I do, while also helping those organisations’ audiences by delivering training for them.
I do quite a bit of that.
I’ve also found LinkedIn to be a huge part of my marketing strategy since I became self-employed.
I’m probably only scratching the surface of what it can actually do, but I find that people see you, recommend you and approach you directly. I’ve had a lot of opportunities through LinkedIn.
[19:44] Darren Jamieson:
Of course, LinkedIn only works if you make it work. You have to use it and post on it.
What sort of things do you do that get you seen as an expert in your industry?
[19:56] Scott Walker:
I’ve been on a bit of a journey with LinkedIn, and I try lots of different things.
For me, sharing my story has really helped. It’s also been about being honest regarding my experiences within the legal profession.
I’ve started to talk a lot more about well-being in the legal profession and some of the challenges the profession faces.
I think that has helped people trust me and see somebody who is willing to have those types of conversations.
That has increased since I first started doing it. I became self-employed in 2022, and even within this short space of time there are now so many lawyers posting. It’s fantastic to see because we’re beginning to have more interesting and important conversations.
Sharing what I’m doing has also helped. There’s a lot to be said for social proof and telling people what your week looks like or what you’ve been doing.
Even if it’s just a quick post saying, “I’m going to this event,” it shows that you’re out and about and doing things.
[21:53] Darren Jamieson:
You’re keeping yourself in people’s minds.
[21:56] Scott Walker:
Absolutely.
[21:57] Darren Jamieson:
Do you have a fixed LinkedIn strategy, or do you post as and when you think there’s something worth sharing?
[22:06] Scott Walker:
I’ve done quite a bit of LinkedIn training, so I’ve learned some of the tricks.
I used to have a strategy because I connected my content with webinars. I used to do a lot of webinars.
[22:26] Darren Jamieson:
What platform did you use for the webinars?
[22:39] Scott Walker:
I used Zoom. I still use it when I return to webinars.
[22:45] Darren Jamieson:
Zoom Webinar?
[22:47] Scott Walker:
Yes.
[22:48] Darren Jamieson:
You were posting on LinkedIn and referencing the webinar—when it was, what time it was and how people could sign up.
[22:56] Scott Walker:
Exactly.
I used LinkedIn Events as a way of marketing it, but it was also connected to my content.
I would have a strategy for the lead-up to the webinar. I’d post educational content about the topic, what I was doing and what the webinar was going to cover.
Then I’d show that I was delivering it. In between, there would be personal posts, journey posts and what I call connection posts.
It was still a mixture, but it was more focused because I had something I was working towards.
It was a good way of planning. I noticed that it was easier to have a content strategy because I could choose particular types of content.
[24:02] Darren Jamieson:
What types of content were you creating?
I’m interested in how you promoted the webinar. Was it a mixture of video, images and written content?
[24:16] Scott Walker:
Most of the content I created, and still create, was written, normally with a picture.
I tended to focus on text-and-picture posts. I’ve done video in the past, and that works quite well.
The good thing about webinars was that they gave you video content. You could repurpose the recordings and post clips.
[24:46] Darren Jamieson:
Excellent.
[24:48] Scott Walker:
You could also put links to your YouTube channel, so that helped with the video side.
However, most of my content has been text and images.
[25:02] Darren Jamieson:
Was LinkedIn the only thing you were using to promote the webinars?
[25:07] Scott Walker:
It was the main source.
Some attendees came through my email list, which was very small at the time. I would also promote it through people I knew—anybody in my network who was willing to share it and spread the word.
I think I used Facebook at the time as well.
[25:32] Darren Jamieson:
Paid or organic?
[25:34] Scott Walker:
Just organic.
[25:39] Darren Jamieson:
How many people were you getting on each webinar, and how regularly were you doing them?
[25:44] Scott Walker:
The idea was to run them monthly.
In all honesty, I didn’t give it long enough. As I’ve learned since, consistency seems to be so important. I suppose it depends on your business model and what else you’re doing, but monthly was the plan.
I managed to do them for six months in total. Had I carried on, I think the consistency would have led to higher numbers.
Considering it was all organic, I think I was getting between 30 and 40 people.
[26:34] Darren Jamieson:
All right.
[26:35] Scott Walker:
It varied throughout the six-month period, and of course you had people dropping off.
[26:44] Darren Jamieson:
Of course.
On the webinars, were you signing people up for a consultation call afterwards, or were you selling a service directly from the webinar?
[26:54] Scott Walker:
Consultation calls were my call to action. I framed them as strategy calls.
At the time, that was slightly easier for what I was selling, which was mainly legal services.
For what I did, it was important to understand a little about the client’s background. It was easier to have a consultation call so that I could get to know the clients better, and they could ask me questions.
I know that selling directly from webinars can be useful as well.
[27:39] Darren Jamieson:
It can be, but that’s a skill in itself.
[27:43] Scott Walker:
Definitely.
[27:45] Darren Jamieson:
If you were selling legal services, the webinars weren’t aimed at the legal profession, which is your target now.
Were they aimed at businesses or individuals?
[27:54] Scott Walker:
Businesses and individuals. That was before the pivot into full-time training and speaking.
[28:03] Darren Jamieson:
What made you stop the webinars? What made you say, “I’ve had enough of this”?
[28:08] Scott Walker:
If I’m being honest, it was a lot of work.
[28:16] Darren Jamieson:
They are, aren’t they? They’re a commitment.
[28:21] Scott Walker:
That’s a great way of saying it.
It’s a huge undertaking to get people to come to the webinars. You see a spike in the beginning because it’s something new and people may not have seen it before, but maintaining that is difficult.
There’s a lot of outreach and messaging, and I struggled with that, in all honesty.
I was also doing the webinars at around the time I knew I wanted to move away from client work, so that was part of it.
The funny thing was that they worked.
They were a great way of meeting people, generating interest, nurturing clients and getting people into your world.
I definitely saw the benefits, but it was a mixture of changing what I was doing and realising how much work was involved.
With the AI tools we have now, some of that work can potentially be reduced.
[29:51] Darren Jamieson:
That’s true.
We used to do webinars either monthly or every six weeks, and I was the one delivering them. I absolutely hated them.
They were always at either six or seven o’clock at night, so you’d finish at eight or nine. I despised doing them.
They worked. We sold from them. However, performing when nobody is physically there drains your energy. It’s incredibly energy-sapping, and afterwards you experience a big comedown.
You feel as though you can’t do anything. You’re so tired, you don’t want to speak to anyone and you don’t want to do anything at all.
The next morning, it’s almost like you’ve had a heavy night, even though all you did was a webinar.
If you’re delivering one while the sun is shining and the weather is beautiful, you know you’re going to get a low attendance rate because people will be outside in the beer gardens.
I despised it. I’d much rather be in front of real people and get that connection.
Now that you’re targeting law firms and lawyers, have you thought about returning to webinars and starting them up again?
[31:09] Scott Walker:
It’s interesting you should say that.
It’s something I’ve been looking at quite recently—in fact, only earlier this month.
I realised that legal professionals love a webinar.
[31:23] Darren Jamieson:
They love a webinar!
[Laughter]
[31:26] Scott Walker:
It felt like quite a natural fit. I’m just getting my head around it.
[31:31] Darren Jamieson:
Particularly if you can arrange it so they receive CPD points. Then they’ll really love a webinar.
[31:38] Scott Walker:
Absolutely. That’s the idea.
[31:40] Darren Jamieson:
They’re learning while they’re being sold to. That’s the way to do it.
Do you have a way to target law firms, or would you do that through LinkedIn again?
[31:54] Scott Walker:
Absolutely through LinkedIn because, as I say, it has been amazing for me and has made a huge difference to my business.
I would also use joint partnerships and relationships with other organisations.
Through the associate training work I do, I have something that would hopefully be valuable for their audiences. It is educational, and as you were saying, attendees receive CPD.
It’s an opportunity to say, “I could provide this to your audience, as long as you don’t mind me making a pitch at the end.”
From what I’ve been learning, there seems to be power in joint partnerships and using other people’s audiences.
[32:48] Darren Jamieson:
Have you done any live talks aimed specifically at different lawyers, with a view to selling to them?
[32:56] Scott Walker:
No. That’s still under development, shall we say.
[33:03] Darren Jamieson:
But it’s coming?
[33:05] Scott Walker:
It’s coming, hopefully.
A lot of the training work I do is virtual and webinar-based, so lawyers do seem to like that.
[33:20] Darren Jamieson:
If it’s training, they’ve got to do it anyway, haven’t they?
The reason I ask questions like that is that we have a lot of solicitors as clients. We work with many solicitors.
We haven’t deliberately targeted the legal industry; we just seem to have picked them up.
I’d love to deliver talks to solicitors about marketing and growing their businesses, but you cannot get in with the Law Society unless you’re what they call a sponsor, advocate or something similar.
It’s really expensive.
There are people who pay for that access and then sell to solicitors. I don’t want to cast any shade here, but lawyers get ripped off.
Most people never feel sorry for lawyers, but I’m starting to really feel sorry for them.
We recently had a solicitor send us a quote she’d received for a website. I won’t say who it was because I can’t breach confidentiality.
It was a very basic brochure website, but the quote was between £17,000 and £25,000.
I thought there must surely be some functionality specific to the business. Perhaps document uploading, version control, a secure server, monitoring and automatic deletion after a set period for GDPR compliance.
No. It was simply a basic brochure website costing between £17,000 and £24,000.
We provide a website like that for £99 a month, and this was incredibly basic.
The cheapest website this company offered was between £6,500 and £7,000, and that was only a template.
You couldn’t have a design specific to your business. They would simply change the colours and logo. They then charged another £120 a month for hosting.
Those are the kinds of companies targeting solicitors.
I feel sorry for lawyers because you’re being completely ripped off, and I don’t understand why. I want to go in and help. It’s madness.
I don’t know whether you’ve seen any of that during your time in the profession.
[35:30] Scott Walker:
I have.
It’s such a great point, and you’re spot-on about the Law Society. It is all about sponsorship and how much people pay.
[35:39] Darren Jamieson:
Exactly.
[35:46] Scott Walker:
It’s not always the right providers, which is the frustrating thing.
I’ve seen it. It sounds incredibly challenging.
[35:59] Darren Jamieson:
It’s disgraceful.
[Laughter]
It’s not just solicitors, though. It’s the same in other industries.
We’ve seen it with accountants because we’ve done a lot of work for them, and they get ripped off as well.
There’s one company that provides websites to accountants all over the country. They say they specialise in accountants, but all the websites look the same.
They even provide all the content to the accountants, which means there are identical pieces of content on every accountant’s website.
It’s all duplicate content, which Google doesn’t like to see.
It’s not just solicitors. Companies that specialise in particular industries are ripping off those businesses because they’re paying to be the sole or recommended provider.
The individual companies then pay a premium because the supplier is paying an industry body for access to them.
There’s something wrong with the whole marketing economy when that is the case. It really annoys me.
You’re out there to help them, though. You’re helping them get better.
[37:06] Scott Walker:
Yes, hopefully.
I think lawyers struggle with marketing. They still do.
[37:15] Darren Jamieson:
They have a bad reputation, lawyers.
[37:24] Scott Walker:
They do, absolutely.
I’ve certainly seen this over the years. In fact, it’s one of the things I discussed in my TEDx talk—the public’s perception of lawyers.
It’s quite nice to hear you say you feel sorry for lawyers, because usually it’s the other way around.
[37:52] Darren Jamieson:
I don’t say it often, but in this instance I really do feel sorry for lawyers.
One of the things you do is help solicitors build their confidence. How?
Firstly, do solicitors really need their confidence building?
At school, I was always told I should be a solicitor, mainly because I liked arguing and could win an argument from many different angles.
If you’re going to be a solicitor—and obviously a barrister is very different from a solicitor—you’re typically used to confrontations, whether verbal or written.
You’re used to confronting people and winning them over, which means you need a certain level of confidence anyway.
How are you helping solicitors build confidence, and do they need it in the first place?
[38:50] Scott Walker:
It comes from the gap.
Law school is great for teaching you the law, the theory and some of the skills.
You begin to develop those skills as you go through law school, although it has all changed now and there’s a completely different route to qualification. That route still includes some skills-based elements.
You start to learn a little about advocacy, so you gain some experience in speaking and, if you’re going down that route, public speaking.
You also do all the theory work and begin developing your research and written communication skills.
However, there has always been a gap between what happens at university and law school and what happens in legal practice.
A lot of it concerns client skills, but it’s also about people generally—getting on with people and with your colleagues.
It’s about understanding your colleagues and how they work. It’s also about understanding your clients, getting to know them and understanding their challenges.
The confidence issue is very much within that skills-based arena.
A better way of describing it might be improving confidence, because you’re right that the confidence is already there. It’s about bridging the gap.
Then, of course, you have the technicalities.
Depending on the area of law you practise, it can be very technical. My area was probate, tax and trusts.
Particularly in the early days of your career, you have some exposure to that. However, during my training days, a lot of my time was spent helping with some of the more mundane tasks, dare I say.
Your real-life experience is therefore very limited. I think that’s where the confidence-building comes in.
It’s about increasing technical confidence, which can be difficult to achieve in practice because everybody is so busy.
That doesn’t mean firms don’t have an open-door policy. It’s simply the reality of working in law.
When we talk about how pressurised and demanding the legal profession is—I don’t necessarily see it that way, incidentally, but it’s what people say—it limits what you can build in terms of skills, confidence and other areas.
For me, it’s also connected to introversion and extroversion.
It goes back to understanding ourselves, understanding other people and recognising how different people prefer to be communicated with.
That’s something I draw upon in the training I deliver. I think it’s the missing piece within some aspects of the profession.
It’s about understanding personality, energy levels and how those differ depending on whether we’re introverted or extroverted.
[43:07] Darren Jamieson:
That overlaps heavily with sales training.
One of the things sales trainers cover is understanding that a potential client may prefer a different style of communication.
Some people want all the detail. Some people only want the headlines or the Cliff Notes.
Some prefer to communicate in writing. Others prefer voice notes or phone calls, perhaps because they’re dyslexic or simply don’t have the attention span to read a long message.
Understanding what somebody wants is a sales technique.
Are you teaching solicitors to understand their clients better, serve them more effectively and ensure they represent them properly?
[43:54] Scott Walker:
Absolutely.
From my experience, it isn’t something you’re taught. It isn’t something we discuss explicitly.
I made that connection when I started speaking about introversion and following the journey that led me to deliver the TEDx talk.
I realised that all of this applies to the workplace and to what we do as lawyers.
I deliver that training using DISC, the personality-profiling tool that you may know and that some listeners may know.
My approach is centred around introversion and extroversion because it comes from my lived experience.
[44:48] Darren Jamieson:
One per cent empathy. One per cent!
I think that makes me a borderline sociopath, but I think that’s fine.
In your area—wills, trusts, tax and probate—I imagine there are many introverted people who are highly focused on the technical aspects of the job.
It’s an area where you cannot make a mistake. If you did, you could massively affect somebody’s estate after they had passed away, leading to a world of pain and arguments about what you had done.
I presume the kinds of people you help are probably quite introverted to begin with.
[45:38] Scott Walker:
I think they are.
That’s another great point. I imagine there are lots of lawyers who are introverted.
Strangely enough, I hadn’t made that connection until recently. I hadn’t appreciated how many lawyers were probably introverted.
That is particularly true of people working across the private-client spectrum, including wills and probate, property law, employment law, family law and, to an extent, criminal law.
It is all about detail and very much about people.
[46:27] Darren Jamieson:
Contract law as well, I imagine.
[46:30] Scott Walker:
Absolutely.
[46:35] Darren Jamieson:
Detail-orientated all the way for contract law.
[Laughter]
How easy do you find solicitors to help?
If you have people who are very introverted and focused on detail, and you’re essentially trying to teach them soft skills so they can communicate better, how receptive are they?
[47:01] Scott Walker:
It varies.
It’s such an interesting question. I often draw upon my training experiences because you see these differences while delivering training.
You can almost identify the people who are happier to share. They like to contribute to the group and engage actively with the training.
Those who are more introverted, like me, prefer to listen. That is partly how they like to learn: listening, absorbing and watching.
You can pick up on some aspects of a person’s personality simply through observing how they participate in training.
[48:17] Darren Jamieson:
Although your legal specialities are in a particular area, are you able to help solicitors who work in any area of law?
[48:30] Scott Walker:
Pretty much.
I’ve concentrated on private-client law and the areas I mentioned earlier because that’s where my experience lies.
However, whatever area of law you work in, I see personality awareness as being central to the workings of a law firm.
It is also connected with well-being and mental health.
We talk about well-being and mental health much more nowadays, which is great. As with any sector, there will be many well-being and mental-health challenges, but in law it is a particular issue.
It is all connected.
Whatever area of law you work in, if you can understand yourself, your colleagues and your clients a little better, I think that helps bridge the gap.
[49:49] Darren Jamieson:
I’m going to use the phrase “teaching old dogs new tricks”.
Are you predominantly working with younger solicitors, or do the heads of firms and senior partners get involved as well?
Are they too far gone to adopt these new, fancy ideas about listening to what clients want?
[50:17] Scott Walker:
That’s another great point.
I’ve realised that it perhaps needs to start with senior lawyers, leaders and managers because that is a great way of making change and changing how we used to work.
From my own experience, many of the firms I’ve worked for have been quite traditional.
To some degree, it’s about changing working practices. I think that starts with senior people.
They may experience stress even more than junior lawyers or people with less post-qualification experience.
The expectations of junior lawyers may be slightly different because they’re from another generation.
Whatever role we have in law, we’re always on the go and constantly busy. There are so many different demands on our time.
Hopefully, senior people and leaders can relate to that and will be open to exploring how we might overcome some of those challenges.
[52:02] Darren Jamieson:
We’re almost out of time, would you believe?
What does the future hold for you?
You stopped doing webinars, although you might start them again, and you’re looking at new ways to target lawyers.
What do you have planned for the next few months?
[52:16] Scott Walker:
I’m really focusing on how I can help and support the people who need it most—the lawyers and firms that need a different approach to working within the profession.
A lot of what I’ll probably be doing over the next couple of months is working out how I can deliver that most effectively.
How can I reach these people? How can I help them think a little differently?
That’s very much the plan.
Behind the scenes, I’m also working on the next iteration of the TEDx talk.
That’s something I’m passionate about because it taps into the idea that we can be great lawyers as introverts.
We need both introverts and extroverts within the profession.
I hope to help junior lawyers and the lawyers of tomorrow see and understand that.
[53:55] Darren Jamieson:
Are you looking to take the TEDx talk and expand it into a keynote, or are you looking to do another TEDx talk?
[54:02] Scott Walker:
I’d love to do a second TEDx talk, funnily enough, but hopefully there’s also a keynote in there somewhere.
I’ve just got to find it.
[54:12] Darren Jamieson:
I’m sure you will.
I’ve taken the TEDx talk I delivered and expanded it quite a bit to use as a keynote.
I’m sure yours is story-based, as mine was, so it’s something you can flesh out when you have more time. Definitely do that.
[54:26] Scott Walker:
I love your TEDx talk, by the way. I’ve seen it.
[54:31] Darren Jamieson:
Of course, I sang near the beginning, which almost lost all the viewers straight away.
Scott, for anyone listening who loves what you’ve said and would like to learn more about you or connect with you, what is the best way to get in touch?
[54:48] Scott Walker:
The best way is through LinkedIn.
People can message me there, and my other contact details, including my email address, are also available on my profile.
LinkedIn is the best place to find me.
[55:01] Darren Jamieson:
Fantastic.
I’ll put a link to your LinkedIn profile below the podcast notes.
Anyone listening on iTunes, Spotify, Audible or elsewhere can scroll down and find it in the show notes.
If you’re watching on YouTube, look in the description below and you can connect with Scott directly.
Scott, thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast.
[55:21] Scott Walker:
Thank you so much, Darren. It’s been fantastic, and thank you for inviting me on.
