Darren Jamieson: Today on The Engaging Marketeer I’m joined by Lee Tunney-Ware. Lee has a unique story: he left school before the age of ten, but he didn’t let that stop him. He’s gone on to be very successful in business and family life — eleven kids and grandkids as well. I’m talking to Lee about the similarities you can learn from family and social life and how that translates into work and business. Humans in the business world can be very similar to animals. One thing we have in common: we were both bullied at school. What kind of impact did that have on you?
[02:07]
Lee Tunney-Ware: I think it shaped me — it gave me the character I’ve got today. My brother and I went to the same school. He’s partially sighted and a little autistic. We moved from the UK to the west of Ireland in the late ’60s, early ’70s, where my mum was from, and it wasn’t a good time to have an English accent. I used to get bullied a lot, but my brother got it worse, which developed my empathy and awareness. For a while I was like a deer in headlights, but I felt like I had an extra-sensory perception — awareness like a radar tenfold out from me.
Some bullies were nice to you and then bullied you, making you the butt of the joke. You could put up with that, but when it got to hitting — they’d run through the playground and someone would smack my brother in the face because he couldn’t see who it was. He’d scream, and he couldn’t tell you who did it. You knew threats were there; they happened sometimes, and you never had anybody to identify. So it became “everybody.” We told teachers and Mum and Dad — it didn’t stop.
[04:43]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Roles changed because my brother was older and I had to protect him. I became the elder brother at seven or eight. It broke some social constructs that control us as humans. People might say I’m an alpha — I’m not. I don’t want to be in charge, but I always seem to be in the right place at the right time to deal with things.
Darren Jamieson: It’s similar for me — it shaped what I do. You left school quite early as a result?
Lee Tunney-Ware: Yes, about eight and a half. We were taught at home, but practically. I’ve got severe dyslexia, so I learned with my hands — how to fence, build walls. I could brick-lay at 14, two or three hundred bricks a day. I was plastering, plumbing. My dad’s philosophy: if you can add up, communicate, and do an invoice, you’ve got the skills you need. Even now, at 58, I read from memory, not phonetically.
[06:06]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Socially it was unique. We grew up on a rural Irish farm; neighbours were far apart. No mate next door, no birthday parties — limited social skills and vocabulary. It was Groundhog Day: put the cows out, milk the cows, fix the back-field fence. It was a very safe place — horse riding and so on — but like living in a bubble.
When my brother started going to discos at 17, I’d go at 14, and that’s when I developed outside the bubble. From eight and a half to mid-teens I worked with animals — mostly non-verbal communication. Humans are mammals too; you learn instinct. Combine that with the deer-in-headlights, and in many ways I’m well educated now. Reading and writing were basic then, but my awareness with people was high. I wouldn’t change it, even though I had to learn social skills at 14–16.
[08:08]
Lee Tunney-Ware: I could never get around how you can be getting on great with someone, and then someone else enters and their personality changes. Psychologically, the person who entered had some form of control over them. The pecking order plays out — parties, weddings, business meetings. It’s not malicious; it happens organically. If they’re bigger, stronger, or the star footballer, it gives them authority. Why doesn’t everyone have the same value regardless of what they do or have?
Darren Jamieson: Is that awareness something you teach business owners?
Lee Tunney-Ware: Yes. You’re either entering or creating the conversation. In business, communication is different. Many people run a social, organic style; they haven’t framed it as a skill separating professional from personal.
[10:18]
Lee Tunney-Ware: In companies, the person who runs the rota suddenly has lots of friends. Friends get Saturdays off; when they don’t, “I thought we were mates.” Are we friends because we’re friends, or because we open doors? I don’t label it “toxic” or “narcissistic.” Most people aren’t aware; we develop habits that support us. In business it’s task-driven: people are paid to do specific things. When ego or pecking order comes in, it disrupts business. Business and marketing are like counting 1-2-3 — process. Some just push the same message and call it marketing.
I never got indoctrinated into the social programming. I don’t think it’s conditioning — it’s just human interaction. Confidence and knowledge play a part. With more than two people, dynamics change — a witness appears. It’s not what’s said; it’s what’s heard. We all carry an “organic dictionary.”
[12:06]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Clear communication frameworks matter — everyone knowing what “X” means. People won’t always speak up; you can’t read minds. Ask: “Does that make sense, John? Mary, your take?” In teams you must be like a choir: individual thought is fine, but for team goals there are policies and procedures. A lot of HR issues are communication — people feel their value isn’t being met. Where do we get value — title?
Darren Jamieson: Are owners aware of this or just plodding along?
Lee Tunney-Ware: They see consequences but not causes. It’s “micro-moments” — small things with big effects. Summaries, getting everyone on the same page, metaphors to anchor understanding — these help.
[14:05]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Many owners fight forward — a “Mario mindset,” climbing a ladder while others tread you down. Kitchen-table entrepreneurs often operate like this. I coach mostly women (about 80 percent of clients). Sometimes women put issues down to sex, but men can struggle worse — I’m not sure if they’re treated worse or react differently. Simon Sinek communicates well, but it gets lost in translation. People read books but don’t extract actionable insight. Feelings get in the way; we second-guess. Awareness is great, but if you calculate the wrong data, you get the wrong outcome — “Darren doesn’t like me; he didn’t look at me.”
We’re task-driven and, since COVID, there’s no reflection time. It’s back-to-back Zooms, more meetings, but overwhelm. I build cushion time: 10–15 minutes before meetings to reset so I don’t carry prior energy. That helps wellbeing and relationships.
[16:19]
Darren Jamieson: Before COVID you’d drive to a meeting, reflect with radio or silence. Now it’s bang-bang-bang. We didn’t evolve into video meetings; it happened suddenly. Is there a pressure point coming?
Lee Tunney-Ware: Yes — individually (“I can’t take it”) and collectively (partners, families, teams). Emotional transference spreads — a conscious contagion. The consequences are seen, but people misidentify the root cause. It’s like getting a puncture on the way to the first meeting; you might make it, but the day is off. The problem isn’t later stress — it’s the puncture. Awareness helps: audit wellbeing personally and professionally. Who’s in charge of your diary? Success, wellbeing, and family are scheduled, or they don’t happen.
[18:04]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Without cushion time, you can’t reflect, celebrate small wins, or build confidence. Otherwise, by day’s end you forget the morning — task-driven — and the human asset isn’t maintained. Are divorces up since COVID? Are people isolated? I love virtual work, but some days it’s ten hours alone. Before COVID you’d bump into people; today you facilitate Zooms with 50–100 people — that’s a task, not connection. There are consequences to health, mindset, communication, connection. Technology is brilliant — we must serve the asset (human) and interactions (family). Make time so kids feel seen — homework, crayon drawings, Christmas trees, train sets. Those are the memories.
[20:05]
Darren Jamieson: True — you won’t remember the Zoom from 3 January 2023; you’ll remember the drawings and train sets. And you’ve got one or two kids yourself…
Lee Tunney-Ware: Eleven kids and four grandkids.
Darren Jamieson: How did you manage eleven — building a cricket team?
Lee Tunney-Ware: Easiest way to say it: I love my wife a lot, and we like kids. We’ve got a good family. It can be hair-raising — five teenagers right now — but manageable. The bigger ones are the worst at the minute — they take over the driveway with their cars. Family management includes parking logistics.
[22:20]
Darren Jamieson: I thought three was a lot — even fitting them in a small car was hard. How did you manage cars with that many?
Lee Tunney-Ware: We had a nine-seater minibus for years. Because they’re spread out over time, as smaller ones came along, the older ones started driving. When we all go somewhere now, it’s two or three cars. Another big-family thing: on planes you can’t have two infants in the same row — only so many oxygen masks. Go all-inclusive on holiday or you’ll go broke — say yes to one ice cream, you’ve said yes to everyone.
Kids count baked beans on plates for equality! Living in a crowd lets you see personalities and how they handle things. The key is not to react — self-awareness. Busy weeks make you snappy; that doesn’t serve anyone. Manage micro-moments: “Give me a sec, let me grab a coffee and think.”
[24:43]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Otherwise you react and create a kind of post-static stress — at home or at work. If you leave a Zoom into a hallway conflict — “Brian said this” — don’t react from shock. Sometimes my wife and I let the kids work it out; sometimes we go out and the natural pecking order surfaces: the oldest boy or girl takes charge. Age confers authority at home. In companies, a sharp twenty-one-year-old might be overlooked in an age-structured culture. When we’re unaware, the organic pecking order runs. When we’re conscious, it’s not blame — it’s design.
[26:51]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Simple car example: who drives? Who sits where? You’ll notice the same two kids always in front; others fight over seats. I created a rota for fairness — airbags meant some were too young for the front, but otherwise we rotated. In boardrooms, people sit in the same place — that’s control order, speaking order, innovation order. Change the seating; put name tags down; mix it up to create inclusion and break cliques. After about three meetings, the new pattern becomes culture and everyone gets a turn — everyone gets value.
[29:23]
Lee Tunney-Ware: At home there’s “Dad’s chair” or “Mum’s chair.” Offer it to your partner: “You sit there; I’ll make you tea.” Sharing reduces invisible authority and creates inclusion, collaboration, unity.
Darren Jamieson: I’d never thought of it like that. Growing up, Dad’s chair was his; Mum’s chair was hers. With my three, the youngest sat behind me because it was smallest (even though she’s tallest). My middle one is the boss and dictates seats — sometimes passenger, sometimes back — all her decision. I never thought about that in the office.
Lee Tunney-Ware: Exactly. Those traits flow over. Changing the order — even turning it into a game — disrupts control customs built from micro-moments.
[31:35]
Darren Jamieson: In our office, six chairs around a table. One person always sits nearest the mouse and ends up controlling the screen — not a manager, but effectively controls the meeting.
Lee Tunney-Ware: Not intentional; often a comfort blanket. But if you want real diversity and inclusion, randomise seating with coloured or numbered chairs. Draw numbers from a bowl — pure, fair, and you can call it a social experiment. Change combinations and you build inclusion. Music is in the gap between notes — value is often in the gaps.
I once did a demo with 1,500 people: I wrote a number, asked everyone to write it fast, then had someone say “1, 2, 3, 4, 5.” Everyone agreed. But the number was “12,345.” The gap between numbers is where the value is — just like the gap between breaths and heartbeats. In teams, the star player’s value is controlled by the others. Reverse a pecking order and you’ll see kickback.
[33:52]
Lee Tunney-Ware: The core workplace or relationship problem is value. “Disrespect” means “you don’t value me.” Under pressure we default to the perceived expert and accidentally exclude others. Small changes help: “Open to the room; John, you can summarise after.” I sometimes start with the least expected person to diversify voices: “Mary, you’re nearest me — let’s start with you.” Have Martin quietly help her with the slides — you upskill people and build collaboration. Expect small huffs and puffs; ignore the noise and hold the frame.
At home, we returned from a weekend away to a bomb-site bedroom. We could have gone mad. But Mum and Dad’s room is the palace; of course they wanted the big TV. I can’t hold kids responsible for what I’d have done. So we said, “We’ll be back in fifteen minutes. If you’re going to use it, don’t abuse it — tidy it.” You could hear them flying around.
[36:16]
Lee Tunney-Ware: True value in a brand or communication is connection. You can’t connect if you’re running a social construct on autopilot. Become conscious of micro-moments and build reflection time.
I look at experience in five channels: three kinds of feeling (emotional/heart, physical/biology/gut, spiritual/chi or pride/purpose), plus thoughts and images (imagination/vision). Overlay time: past (memory/patterns), present (awareness), future (projection — worry, doubt, fear). Fear can be biological (immediate threat) rather than psychological. Feeling “low” is spiritual; “not enjoying” is emotional; “doesn’t make sense” is cognitive; “can’t see a way forward” is visual.
[38:38]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Language matters. If you can’t process something, don’t stew — go back neutrally: “Darren, you said X. I’m struggling to process it; could you give me more data?” That’s not an attack; it’s a data request to resolve a processing gap. Many conflicts are processing errors, not malice.
Triggers and tone matter. “All right, Darren?” can signal excitement, happiness, or dominance depending on tonality. Layer that with seating and speaking order, and those micro-signals build a programme no one enjoys but everyone perpetuates. Then we legislate to control the future because we didn’t manage the present.
[40:31]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Safety (biology) gets prioritised first — COVID showed that: pharmacies and supermarkets stayed open, counselling didn’t. When we feel safe, we want security (future). The safer we become, the more rules we create to secure the future. It comes back to presence, awareness, and designing interactions.
Darren Jamieson: I can see why you work with businesses on this. It never occurred to me to ask the least “qualified” person first for feedback, or how much tonality changes reception. I’ll be more conscious of that now.
[42:21]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Exactly.
Darren Jamieson: We’re out of time — I asked a question and you answered for forty-five minutes! As a summary: if someone’s listening and thinks, “He knows what’s going on and can solve my team problems,” what’s the best way to contact you?
Lee Tunney-Ware: LinkedIn — search for Lee Tunney-Ware, mention you heard me on Darren’s podcast, and connect. We communicate through written or spoken word — and through small actions. Body language matters too. When you get home, a rub on the head or hand on the shoulder for your kids or partner — those little touches change everything.
Darren Jamieson: I’ll try that — and try not to get into HR trouble!
[44:17]
Lee Tunney-Ware: Workplace is different — don’t touch clients! Use words and micro-moments there. Even handing out pens in a meeting — who gets one first? There’s a pecking order in everything. Sometimes it’s convenience; sometimes people give it to “the boss.”
Darren Jamieson: True. Thank you, Lee — that’s been brilliant. I’ve loved this and learned loads, which is one of the main reasons I do these podcasts.
Lee Tunney-Ware: Thank you, my friend.
