Darren: On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking with Aileen Carson, who is a neurodiversity trainer and speaker. Aileen works with businesses on how they can be better prepared and help neurodivergent members of staff, but she also works with neurodivergent people on how they can get better at portraying themselves and working better in the workplace to be the best versions of themselves.
You are a neurodiversity trainer and speaker. There’ll be people who hear the word neurodiversity and just think it means autism. There’ll be other people who don’t know what neurodiversity means. So could you just very, very succinctly explain what neurodiversity encompasses?
Aileen: Yes.
Neurodiversity is the natural variation in how our brains work
We all process information differently. We all experience the world differently. That’s a completely natural variation in how our brains work.
There’s no right or wrong way of thinking, processing information or experiencing the world. Neurodiversity covers a large variety of different conditions or neurotypes, such as autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Tourette syndrome and lots more. So it’s about how our brains work and the fact that our brains all work differently.
Darren: As you mentioned, all of our brains work differently. Everybody is slightly different from somebody else. So does that mean everybody, to some degree, is neurodiverse?
Aileen: It’s a really interesting question and there’s always lots to debate about that. One of the things that tends to determine whether somebody is neurodivergent or not is that, while we all have strengths and weaknesses, neurodivergent people tend to have larger gaps between their strengths and weaknesses. This is called a spiky profile.
If you’re neurodivergent, you will have a spiky profile, which basically means there are much larger gaps between your strengths and weaknesses. If you’re neurotypical, there tend to be much smaller gaps, so you won’t really have a spiky profile. It’ll be much flatter.
Darren: Have you got an example of the kind of things that people would be really good at versus the kind of things they would be very bad at?
Aileen: Yes. Although everybody is different, there are some commonalities.
Very often, neurodivergent people tend to be very creative
They may be very good at problem solving. Some people, particularly those with ADHD, can be very good at being hyperfocused, just being so completely focused on what they’re doing that they don’t notice the time passing.
The kinds of things people have more difficulty with tend to be around executive functions. That’s things like memory, concentration and time management. Those are the kinds of things we need on a daily basis to help us achieve our goals and help us through our day-to-day work.
There are some commonalities. While everybody is different, things like creativity, problem solving and spotting patterns that perhaps other people don’t see can often be strengths in neurodivergent people. But executive function-type things like memory, concentration, focus and time management tend to be harder for neurodivergent people.
Darren: So how would somebody know if they were neurodivergent?
Aileen: If you wanted a diagnosis, that would usually be done by a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I’m sure a lot of your listeners will be aware there are very long waiting lists for assessments. Lots of people, myself included, suspect that they’re neurodivergent even without a diagnosis.
Darren: So you’ve not had a diagnosis yourself, even though you work in this field and you suspect that you are?
Aileen: Yes, I don’t have a diagnosis. Partly because it was much later in life when I realised that I probably was neurodivergent. I very strongly suspect that I have ADHD.
I’ve never done anything about seeking a diagnosis, partly because, for me, I don’t really feel that I need one. I think it would be different if I wasn’t running my own business. If I was employed somewhere, a diagnosis might be more helpful for me.
You don’t need a diagnosis to ask for adjustments at work. But I think it might be more helpful for me personally if I was an employee somewhere. Because I run my own business, I have a lot more flexibility. I can make adjustments whenever I need. I can work at a time of day that suits me best. I can do different types of work at different times of day that suit me best.
I’ve never really felt the need for a diagnosis. But knowing a lot about ADHD and neurodiversity in general, I have self-diagnosed, if you like, which is absolutely valid.
Darren: I imagine for you, as you are a speaker in neurodiversity, it sounds a strange way to say this, but it might add to your credibility if you were diagnosed as neurodivergent.
Aileen: Absolutely. You’re absolutely right. I often think that, particularly because I run training courses and I’m also a coach with neurodivergent people. If I actually had that diagnosis, that possibly would give me more credibility.
It’s never been an issue for me, as far as I’m aware. I don’t think anybody has decided not to work with me because I don’t have that diagnosis. But a lot of the people I work with don’t have a diagnosis either, and there are such long waiting lists.
If you’re trying to get an assessment on the NHS, you can go private, but obviously that will cost money. Not everybody can afford that. With some private providers, there are long waiting lists as well. While it will still be a quicker process, you might still have to wait for a while.
There are various reasons why not all neurodivergent people have a diagnosis. There are also people out there who are neurodivergent but might not know that they’re neurodivergent. They might just never have come up against any barriers, or any invisible barriers that might be there.
Some people don’t want a diagnosis, and that’s absolutely fine as well. For some people, it’s very important. They want to be able to put a name to what it is that they’re experiencing. And not everybody knows that you don’t need a diagnosis to request adjustments at work. Some people feel that they need to have that diagnosis in order to have a conversation with their employer or their manager, although it’s not actually necessary.
Darren: I imagine putting the name to it would help you understand what your requirements were. Whereas before, you might not know. You might be uncertain of what would be beneficial to you and what wouldn’t.
Aileen: It can be a really difficult question, I think, for both managers and their team members, because sometimes people don’t know what would help. They might be aware that they’re having difficulties in a particular area. They might not know what they’re entitled to. They might not know what they can ask for.
In terms of the workplace, there might be a lot of fear or anxiety involved in bringing this to someone’s attention. Sometimes people who think they might be neurodivergent might not be sure how safe it is to mention that to their work, and for good reason. I’ve worked with people who have lost their jobs because they’ve been neurodivergent. I’ve worked with people who have been told that they won’t progress with their career.
There are very good reasons why somebody might not want to draw attention to themselves. They might not want to say to their employer that they’ve had a diagnosis.
For managers, it can be difficult as well, because sometimes managers want to help. They might notice that somebody appears to be having difficulties in a particular area. They might want to help, but they might not be sure how to do it. They might not know what kind of questions to ask or whether to mention anything at all, particularly if that person hasn’t come to them. There can be lots of reasons why these conversations don’t take place in the workplace.
Darren: I can appreciate that. My daughter is 23 now. A few years ago, she was insistent she had ADHD and she wanted to be diagnosed for it. Presumably it’s easier for children to get diagnosed than adults, I would assume, maybe not. But we decided not to, because I was worried how it would affect her going into university and employment if she was diagnosed.
But the other point I wanted to make before you answer that one was, it’s not like a CCJ or a criminal conviction. Presumably, if you do get diagnosed with ADHD, you don’t have to disclose it at every opportunity and let people know.
Aileen: No, absolutely. You don’t have to disclose it to anybody. You might choose to, and that’s fine, but you don’t have to. In terms of the workplace, again, you’re under no obligation to tell your employer if you’ve had a recent diagnosis, or even if you think you might have ADHD or be of any other neurotype.
In your question about children and adults, there are a lot more people being diagnosed in adulthood, mainly because they were missed in childhood. Now there’s more awareness and certain things might be picked up earlier in children.
When I think back to when I was at school a very, very long time ago, there would have undoubtedly been neurodivergent children in my class, but it wouldn’t have been picked up. I don’t think these things were really talked about then. People didn’t have that same awareness or knowledge, whereas now there’s a lot more awareness.
That’s one of the reasons why more people are coming forward for assessments. They’ve recognised there may be something in them. What sometimes happens as well is that if a child has a diagnosis, the parents may then start to think, “Actually…” They may recognise some signs of themselves in their children. That can get adults starting to question whether or not they’re neurodivergent as well, and that may prompt them to seek a diagnosis themselves.
There are a lot of adults out there either being diagnosed or starting to think they could be neurodivergent themselves and trying to figure out whether a diagnosis would be helpful for them.
With a diagnosis, while it’s a very personal decision whether to go through the assessment or not, it can open doors. For example, some people with ADHD are on medication. Without that diagnosis, you’re not going to get that medication. So it can open doors for treatment or support that you might find much harder to access without a diagnosis.
Darren: I imagine there are some sections of the media that are not helping matters at all. You mentioned that there were children in school when you were in school that clearly were neurodivergent, but it wasn’t picked up. I can certainly think of somebody when I was in primary school who was absolutely neurodivergent, but it wasn’t picked up.
But you get people of a certain age saying things like, “Autism didn’t exist when I was in school,” or, “Vaccines must cause autism because we didn’t have vaccines when I was in school, and now we do and now people are autistic.” It did exist. You just didn’t know about it.
So that can’t help with making it acceptable to be diagnosed and making it okay to talk about it, surely.
Aileen: It just adds to the stigma. There is still a stigma attached to neurodivergence. Misinformation and some of the things that are out there in the news, in the media and on social media, you have to be very careful where you’re getting your information from.
There are lots of trusted sources out there, but there are also so many people who say, “Everybody’s autistic these days,” “Everybody’s got ADHD these days,” or, “We never had that in my day.”
We’ve always been here
These things just weren’t picked up before. It’s not new. Neurodivergence has been around for a very, very long time. There may just not have been a name for it many years ago. There wouldn’t have been the same kind of awareness.
I think it’s important that if you’re thinking you might be neurodivergent, you get the right information, because there are so many sections of the media where the information is not helpful.
It also doesn’t help when you have people in the public eye who use neurodivergence as an excuse for some very bad behaviour. There are people who are genuinely struggling and not using any excuses, but when you get people in the public eye saying, “I did this because I’m autistic,” or, “I did this because I have ADHD,” that doesn’t help. That amplifies some of the stereotypes and the stigma surrounding neurodiversity.
Darren: There’s a really good social media personality, I suppose you’d call him. He’s done work with councils and stuff like that. His son’s autistic, and every now and then he shares this post he made probably four or five years ago now, where a woman said to his son that he doesn’t look autistic. The line was, “You don’t look autistic. Oh, I’m sorry, Luke. Would you please do an autism for the lady?”
Aileen: Yes, I’ve seen that one.
Darren: You’ve seen that one? That’s Simon Harris. He’s been on this podcast before. He’s really good.
Aileen: It’s so true.
There are so many stereotypes out there
I think people find that a lot, that they’re told that. Even by medical professionals sometimes.
I’ve had clients who have gone to see their GP to ask to be referred for an assessment and they’ve been told, “You can’t be autistic because you’re married and you have a family,” or, “You can’t be autistic because you can maintain eye contact.” That doesn’t help either.
Darren: Autistic people can’t get married. That’s the lesson there.
Aileen: Exactly. It’s like, “Well, you won’t find it easy to have relationships with people,” or to maintain eye contact, or all these kinds of things. Or people with ADHD are always late for things. Some are, but although I strongly suspect I have ADHD, I’m the opposite. I’m never late for anything. I can’t bear being late for things.
That’s also another sign of ADHD, which I didn’t realise. It was one of the reasons I kept telling myself for quite a long time that I couldn’t possibly have ADHD because I’m not late for things. That’s the stereotype, that people with ADHD are always late, can never turn up on time and experience time blindness. A lot of people do, but not everybody.
There are lots of stereotypes out there. Even people you’d think would be much more aware of what neurodiversity actually is can still be a bit blinkered by some of these stereotypes.
Darren: When you said about not being late, I’m like that. I cannot be late for anything. I will usually turn up for a networking event or a meeting a good half an hour beforehand, sometimes an hour beforehand, because I do not want to walk into a room full of people. I want to be the first person in the room and have other people walk in. That way I feel comfortable.
Aileen: I’m exactly the same, actually. If there’s a small number of people there, that’s fine. Walking into a room that’s full of people, trying to start that initial conversation when everybody else is already involved in a conversation, is really difficult.
I’m always early for that reason, but also I just have this thing about being late. I cannot be late for anything. If I’m waiting for somebody and they’re running late, the anxiety that fills me with is incredible.
Darren: It’s curious, because you mentioned not being late. Do you know the former footballer, very famous man, David Beckham?
Aileen: Oh yes.
Darren: He has a compulsion where he cannot be late for anything. Somebody played a practical joke on him. I think it was James Corden, where he deliberately delayed him so he was late for a particular meeting, and it drove him nuts.
Aileen: That would freak me out so much. That’s my worst nightmare, being late for something. And if somebody else makes me late as well. My husband is much more relaxed about timekeeping than I am. He’s got wise to this now, but if we were ever going out somewhere together, I would tell him we needed to leave about half an hour earlier than we actually did.
Darren: I do that.
Aileen: It doesn’t work anymore though, because we’ve been together a long time. He now knows exactly what I’m doing.
Darren: I stagger people based on how late I know they’re going to be. I’ll tell my sister an hour beforehand. I tell my son half an hour beforehand and I tell my daughter the right time.
You mentioned speaking to your GP about being diagnosed. There will be people listening to this who are thinking, “Am I neurodiverse? I don’t know.” How do they go about it if they want to be diagnosed? What are the steps?
Aileen: The first port of call usually is the GP. So going along to your GP, explaining why you think you might need an assessment and asking for a referral.
I would think about whether or not you want that diagnosis and what it will mean for you if you get it. It is a very long process. Because of the waiting lists, people can be waiting for years and years. So I would be realistic if you are looking for a diagnosis.
Also, the systems are different depending on what part of the country you’re in. If you’re in England, it’s a different system than if you’re in Scotland. Basically, your GP would be the first port of call for a referral, and then after that you would be referred to a psychiatrist or psychologist.
The assessment process is different depending on what neurotype you think you might be. Nothing happens quickly. I would think about why you want the diagnosis and what you think it might do for you. Will it open doors for treatment or support if you think that’s what you need? Or do you just want peace of mind? Do you want to know there’s something going on and what it is?
Also be prepared that when you go through the assessment process, you might not get the result you’re expecting. It might be that you’re not neurodivergent. I was working with somebody recently who had an assessment for autism, and it turned out he wasn’t autistic. So be prepared that it can be a lengthy process and you may or may not get the results you’re looking for.
Darren: Even getting an appointment with your GP is difficult.
Aileen: Yes, even that can take a while.
Darren: Is there any preliminary stuff you can do? You said go in and explain what it is you think you might have. “I think I might have ADHD,” or, “I think I might have autism,” or whatever it may be.
What if you’ve got no idea? You just think, “I’m a bit different to other people. I know I’m a bit different to other people, but I don’t really know how or in what way. I don’t want to put a label on it because I’ve got no real idea.” How can I get an indication before I even speak to a GP of what I think I might have?
Aileen: I would think about the kinds of things you might be finding difficult and the reasons why you’ve noticed that you’re different to the people around you. What is it that makes you think you’re different?
You might do things differently. You might feel different to other people. So think about what it is that makes you different and what difficulties you’re having.
The more information you can give your GP, the easier it’s going to be for them to think, “What kind of assessment might this person need?” Even if you can’t put a name to it yourself, that’s absolutely fine. But think about what is difficult for you.
We often talk about the difficulties, and with neurodivergence people talk a lot about perceived deficits, but neurodivergent people have real strengths as well. It might be that you’ve noticed you’re exceptionally good at something and the people around you are maybe not so good at that. While looking at difficulties is something people often focus on, I think it’s just as important to look at the strengths you have as well.
You might also have neurodivergent relatives. If perhaps one of your parents is neurodivergent, you might have noticed some common traits between you and your mum or dad. A lot of parents, when they have a child who’s diagnosed, notice traits within themselves that they’ve also spotted within their child.
There could be all sorts of things you might have picked up on. The more information you can give someone like your GP, the easier it will be for them.
Darren: Like lining all the cars up in a row or separating all the sweets into colour before you eat them. That kind of thing.
Aileen: Something like that.
Darren: You keep mentioning tests and assessments. I’m thinking in my head, what on earth is that? Are we putting our fingers into electrical stuff? Are we getting scans? Are we doing quizzes? Are we looking at colour blocks and saying what we think they are? What sort of tests are these? I’ve got fear of what these might be.
Aileen: I’m probably not the best person to answer that question, having not been through an assessment myself.
Darren: You need to do it. Get through the assessment.
Aileen: There will be lots and lots of questions. Sometimes parents might be involved if parents are still alive. It can be really helpful for the person doing the assessment not just to hear from you, but also to hear from the people close to you.
They may well look back at your childhood as well, seeing how you grew up, how you presented, what was going on for you and what your behaviours were like when you were a child. It won’t necessarily just involve you. It could involve your parents or people close to you as well.
Darren: You talked about different skills and things you’re good at. I know the answer to this, but I’m going to ask it anyway for the benefit of other people listening who don’t know the answer. That’s the excuse I’m giving anyway.
People think of neurodiverse people as being exceptionally good with numbers. Presumably that’s a myth and not all autistic people are maths geniuses who can do long multiplication in their heads within a fraction of a second. Is that a myth? And what are the realities in terms of skills they could be good at that we don’t necessarily know about?
Aileen: It is a bit of a myth, but there are people out there who are exceptionally good at numbers and are maths geniuses. There are also people who really struggle with that. It’s very much an individual thing.
There are some typical strengths and challenges, but it is different for everybody. The stereotype that everyone who’s autistic is some kind of maths genius is not the case at all. There are some, definitely, but not everybody is.
There are a lot of myths and stereotypes out there surrounding neurodivergence, particularly around autism and ADHD. That goes back to what we were saying earlier about the media and social media and getting the right information.
Certainly, some of the work I do is about trying to break down some of these stereotypes, getting the right information out there and increasing awareness. Not just about awareness, but hoping people take action after they learn the facts rather than some of the myths and stereotypes that are out there.
Darren: Do you have numbers, figures or even an idea of figures for the number of people in the UK who are classified or diagnosed as neurodivergent, and potentially people who are but haven’t been diagnosed?
Aileen: I don’t have numbers, but it’s generally thought that about 15 to 20% of the population is neurodivergent. So up to about a fifth of the population.
Darren: That is so much.
Aileen: Yes. I don’t know what the population is, but around 70 million, I think, in the UK.
Darren: Wow.
Aileen: So there are a lot of us. In some ways, it’s surprising that it’s still treated as something very unusual. Actually, it’s not that unusual at all.
Darren: Perhaps there’s just not been enough knowledge or awareness about it, because there are people going around saying it didn’t exist in my day. That’s the problem.
So what exactly should employers be doing to help with inclusivity within the workplace for neurodivergent members of staff?
Aileen: There are a number of things. Again, sometimes it can be an individual thing, but when you’re looking at the workplace in general, sometimes there can be various barriers that not everybody sees.
Starting from before you even work somewhere, recruitment processes can sometimes be a barrier. There are certain behavioural expectations in an interview. I know a number of autistic people who have struggled to get through interviews because they find it really difficult to maintain eye contact. The interviewer has wrongly made an assumption that they’re not interested or they’re not paying attention. That can be a barrier. If you don’t know that some people have real difficulty maintaining eye contact, that could then go against that person.
I think looking at recruitment processes and making sure they’re inclusive is important.
Creating safety in the workplace is a really important one
People will not share that they have a diagnosis, or that they think they might be neurodivergent, if it doesn’t feel safe to do so. That’s a responsibility of everybody in the organisation, not just the leadership team.
It’s about creating safety within a workplace where people feel safe to share, if they want to, that they have a diagnosis. It’s also about making it safe for them to ask for help or support and know that it won’t be held against them. The next time they come up for promotion, it won’t be held against them. They will have the same opportunities as other people.
There are lots of little things people can do to help individuals. For somebody who struggles with noise in an office, for example, noise-cancelling headphones can be a really simple thing. Really easy to do, and that can make a difference.
The environment is hugely important. It is for everybody, but it can be particularly important for people who have sensory sensitivities. If you are sensitive to noise, bright lights or smell, then working in an environment that has very strong smells or very bright lights could be really difficult. It can make it much harder for you to work at your best.
I talk quite a lot about what people need to work at their best. If employers think, “What do all our employees need to work at their best?” not just a particular group of employees, that helps.
If you make a workplace inclusive for neurodivergent people, it will be inclusive for everybody. It’s not about preferential treatment for one particular group of people. It’s about making a workplace inclusive for everybody who works there.
If workplaces are designed with the needs of the people who use them in mind, the barriers I mentioned before won’t exist. People won’t need to ask for adjustments. We’re a long way off that, but if people think about whether they’re unintentionally putting barriers in people’s way, that’s important. Sometimes these things aren’t done intentionally. It can be completely unintentional.
There are lots of things people can do, but it’s about thinking, “What are the needs of our employees and what do they need to be able to work at their best?”
There’s also something about making the most of people’s strengths. So many of my clients have had real problems in the workplace because their employer has focused very much on the difficulties they’re having. While there may be a need for that to help put adjustments in place, if you’re just focusing on the difficulties or challenges someone is facing, you may not be taking their strengths into account.
If people are doing work that is aligned with their strengths, and barriers they face are removed from the workplace, they’ll thrive. If there are lots of barriers in place and the employer or manager is focusing solely on the difficulties they’re having, it’s going to be much harder for them to do their best work.
Darren: I was thinking about what you were saying about people with eye contact. I remember we interviewed somebody here, maybe 15 years ago now, and he couldn’t make eye contact during the interview. His eyes were all over the place. My business partner commented on it, saying, “Did you notice how he just couldn’t maintain eye contact with us?”
But we hired him because the role was for editor, content editor, so reading and editing content and being really good at grammar. His attention to detail was the best we’ve ever had. So it is also relevant to the role. It doesn’t matter if somebody can’t maintain eye contact if the role you’re actually hiring them for is suited to the skills you require them for.
But it hadn’t occurred to us at the time that when we were interviewing somebody who couldn’t maintain eye contact, he may have other needs. It didn’t occur to us. I think that’s probably something businesses are lacking, certainly at the interview stage. You don’t necessarily know if someone is doing something you might consider quirky because they have needs, or because they just don’t want to be there or they’re just not suited to the job.
Aileen: It doesn’t occur to a lot of people. Having spoken to some of my clients who have really struggled with interviews and with lots of different parts of recruitment processes, it can be really difficult to get past that. They may be absolutely perfect for that role.
Sometimes employers ask for things during the recruitment process that are not necessarily part of the job. They’re trying to test lots of different skills, but really you just want to be testing the skills that person needs to be able to do the job well.
I’ve been asked to do presentations at so many job interviews. Sometimes those jobs didn’t require any public speaking or presentation skills at all, but that was just part of the recruitment process because that’s the way it was done. It had always been done like that.
Sometimes putting people on the spot can be part of an interview scenario, but if that’s not part of the role, why are you testing for that during the recruitment process? You’re absolutely right. Look at the skills you need for that job. Does that person have those skills? Just because they can’t maintain eye contact or perhaps they’re fidgeting a bit, that doesn’t mean they can’t do the job.
There’s a real lack of awareness around recruitment. That can make it harder for people just to get their foot in the door, never mind getting in there and actually doing the job. When employers are focusing on people’s strengths and making sure the people they’re hiring have the strengths to do the job, that’s the main thing.
Darren: Right now in the UK, and again a lot of employers don’t know this, I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before when I’ve spoken to people in recruitment and HR, if you interview somebody and you prejudice against them, for example you get out of them that they’re expecting a baby, or they’re going to have children in the next couple of years, or even that they smoke, and you don’t give them the job because of that, then you are opening yourself up to potential legal action because you are prejudiced against them for something that is outside their control.
Is there anything right now for neurodiversity? If you were to find out somebody had ADHD, for example, and then not give them the job and hire somebody who had very, very similar skills but didn’t have ADHD, is there any legal protection at the moment for people with neurodiversity when they’re going for interviews?
Aileen: The Equality Act is the one piece of legislation that springs to mind. I would qualify that by saying I’m not a lawyer, so I wouldn’t want to give any legal advice, but autism and ADHD are almost always classed as disabilities when you look at the definition of disability within the Equality Act.
If you were to discriminate against somebody because they were autistic or had ADHD, you could very well be in breach of the Equality Act. But as I say, that’s not legal advice. That’s not my area.
Darren: So it’s definitely in the employer’s interests to be aware of this and to be up on everything and all the requirements they need, so they don’t inadvertently make mistakes like that.
Quite often when people ask a candidate if they’re expecting a baby or if they’ve got family plans, you might not know that’s a question you can’t ask. It’s just something you’re generally curious about asking. You don’t know. So you can accidentally break the law by doing that.
It’s the same with neurodiversity. You can accidentally get yourself into trouble and not realise you’re doing it if you’re not aware of what you can and cannot ask during an interview.
Aileen: Yes.
Darren: What about the flip side, in terms of candidates? I know you help people as well who are neurodiverse going into the workplace. What advice would you give to somebody who was neurodiverse in terms of going for a job, going for an interview and portraying themselves in their best light to be able to do the job to the best of their abilities?
Aileen: It’s quite a difficult question to answer, partly for the same reasons that people may or may not want to share with their employer that they have a diagnosis.
If you don’t know what that employer is like, you may not want to draw attention to the fact that you’re neurodivergent. If you have a diagnosis, it’s very much a personal decision.
Sometimes you might be able to get an idea of how an employer might be likely to respond. If an employer encourages people to ask for adjustments during the recruitment process, that may give an indication that they are supportive, but not necessarily. You don’t know.
It’s a really difficult thing to answer, and I tend not to give people advice on this kind of thing because it is very much a personal decision. If it feels safe to disclose something about yourself, and if you think you might need some adjustments in the recruitment process in order for you to come across at your best, then you might want to request those.
But it really is a very personal decision, because very often you don’t know how supportive an employer is before you start working there.
Darren: Surely, in a perfect world, and the world isn’t perfect, but in an ideal world, as a candidate looking for a job, if an employer wasn’t willing to make the adjustments I needed, or would prejudice against me if they knew I had it, then that’s not the kind of company I’d want to work for anyway.
So you should really be as honest as you possibly can to make sure you get the best fit with the company you work for and that they’re going to support you and help you be the best you can be.
Aileen: In an ideal world, yes. I just don’t think that always happens. But you’re right. If an employer seems very reluctant to make any kind of adjustments, or you just don’t get a good feeling about it, then yes, I would be thinking, “No, this is not the right place for me.”
But there are lots of reasons why people might not want to share anything personal about themselves. It’s not just about neurodivergence. It could be that someone has a disability, a chronic illness or anything else.
Personally, I would think long and hard about whether I wanted to share it at that stage. If it was something I might need adjustments for if I got the job, then I might mention it, partly to see the reaction and to get a sense of whether they’re going to hold that against me or not.
But it’s a very personal decision and I completely understand why people might not want to share that kind of information about themselves when they don’t know how an employer is going to respond.
Darren: In terms of allowances that somebody who’s neurodiverse might need, you mentioned noise-cancelling headphones and sensitivity to smells as well. From my own son at the moment, he is very sensitive to smells, which is ironic because his room stinks, but he is very sensitive to smells.
We go to the football at Liverpool, at Anfield, and whenever we leave, people start smoking outside because they’re not allowed to smoke in the ground. It’s banned in the ground. Although people still do it and they announce that if you do it, you’ll get thrown out, but they don’t throw people out. That’s a bugbear he’s got.
As soon as we walk out of the stadium, people start sparking up cigarettes. He’s covering his face as we’re walking back to the car because he doesn’t want to smell it. He refuses to sit outside at any restaurant, pub or bar for food because people will smoke. He will always sit inside. No matter how hot it is, he will never sit outside.
There’s no way he could work here, for example, because one of our staff smokes. They go outside for a cigarette, come back in and you can smell it as they walk in. He would not be able to put up with that.
What other kinds of allowances have you seen in the workplace that employers have made for neurodiverse people?
Aileen: Along the lines of smell, one of the things somebody could request, or an employer might think about, is if somebody is very sensitive to smell and their desk is right outside the kitchen or staff room where people are eating food, it might be that they don’t sit there. They could have a desk much further away.
A lot of the things I’ve seen or would suggest are actually really simple. When the words “reasonable adjustments” are mentioned, people sometimes think it’s going to be expensive, they haven’t got the budget for it, or it’s going to be a real hassle to put in place. Very often it’s not. Certainly in my experience, the smallest things can make the biggest difference.
Noise-cancelling headphones, sitting in a quieter area of the office if someone is sensitive to noise, or some flexibility in working. Maybe being able to work from home a couple of days a week or entirely. It will depend on the job role and the employer. What’s reasonable for one organisation may not be reasonable for another. Larger organisations will have more resources, so what’s reasonable for a very large organisation may not be reasonable for a much smaller one.
There are all sorts of small things people can do. Another is flexibility not just regarding where somebody works, but some flexibility around how they schedule their work. We all have times of day when we work better than other times of day. Some people work much better in the mornings and might feel tired in the afternoons or evenings. For some people it’s the other way around.
If you have some flexibility over how you arrange your work and you are able to concentrate much better in the mornings, you might want to schedule tasks that require more thinking or more energy in the mornings, and perhaps lighter tasks in the afternoons or at a time of day when you find it harder to concentrate. Giving people a bit of flexibility, where possible, can help. I know that won’t work for all jobs.
There’s a lot of assistive technology out there. Things that didn’t exist years and years ago. Software that could help dyslexic people, for example.
Sometimes you might have to be a bit creative. Sometimes people don’t always know what’s helpful for them or for their team members. Some of the work I do is around coaching. I coach people who are having difficulties in the workplace and help them find strategies that can help them with the areas they’re finding difficult.
I also help them become more aware of their strengths. Very often people themselves are focused on what they’re finding difficult. Sometimes when I ask people about their strengths, I just get a blank look. It’s like, “Well, I don’t have any strengths.” Yes, you do. Everybody has strengths.
It’s about helping people recognise what their strengths are and whether they can make more use of them in the workplace or in their job. There are lots of things people can do, and very often they’re small and don’t cost anything. You might just need to think about it a little bit.
Darren: I can get that. I can’t be creative on a Monday morning. It’s just not a creative time. I genuinely cannot do any sort of writing, putting together slides or a presentation or task on a Monday. It’s just not going to happen. That’s more a Friday afternoon task.
That’s probably why Google, a massive company obviously, used to have this thing, and they might still have it, where their staff are allowed to work on a personal passion project on a Friday afternoon.
Aileen: Yes.
Darren: Which is owned by Google, so you don’t own it. But you can work on something, research and development, your own project, and a lot of their products have come from that because that’s a time when people are going to be creative on a Friday afternoon.
Aileen: It’s a great idea. I have heard of that. I really like the idea of being able to work on your own projects and use your own creativity to see what you come up with.
Darren: Let’s talk about your training. In terms of your business, how are you currently getting clients coming to you, and what sort of people do you work with?
Aileen: Almost all of my work is around neurodiversity. I’ve had quite a varied background. I’m somebody who has never stayed in any one job for a huge length of time, which is quite common in a lot of people with ADHD.
Darren: That’s not a good thing to announce on a CV, is it?
Aileen: It’s funny because for some people that can be a big black mark against your name, but others recognise that when you move around, you do pick up lots of skills and knowledge from different employers.
My more recent background was in the housing sector, so I’m working with quite a number of housing associations, running neurodiversity training sessions for them. I also work with small business owners themselves and do some coaching with them to help them make the most of their strengths and run their business in a way that is sustainable for them.
Burnout is quite common in neurodivergent people. Obviously it can affect anybody, but I think because a lot of neurodivergent people are masking a lot of the time, that can really take its toll. It can be exhausting.
Helping people to run their business or do their job in a way that’s sustainable for them is something I look at within my coaching.
I also work with charities and other smaller organisations, again, a mixture of training and coaching. Some of my coaching clients come to me through organisations I’ve worked with. I might go in and deliver a training session, and then they might contact me months later to say, “We’ve got one or two employees who could benefit from some coaching. Can you work with them?”
I’m also an associate coach with an organisation called Genius Within. They do a huge amount of work around neurodiversity, so some of my coaching work comes from them as well. That’s been great because I get to work with people from all different sectors, different companies and completely different jobs. Some very senior people, chief execs, and other people who are perhaps at the very start of their career and just getting their foot in the door.
It’s really varied, which I love. I like working with lots of different people. The work comes from a variety of places. Sometimes people find me on LinkedIn, or they might stumble across my website and get in touch with me then. I tend to find, and I think a lot of people say this, that people who have found me on LinkedIn tend to follow me for quite a long time before they get in touch. They need to feel as though they know me a bit more.
Usually, if people have contacted me through LinkedIn, they have usually been following me for about a year, if not more, and just watching what I’ve been doing and the kinds of things I talk about. It’s very rare for someone to contact me having just found me on LinkedIn or somewhere else. Sometimes people find me on Instagram as well. I don’t do as much with Instagram, but sometimes people find me there.
Having an online presence helps. To begin with, when I first started out, it felt very uncomfortable. But when I realised that visibility can really help to bring in work and clients, I do think that’s really important. Partly being visible, but also being consistent in that visibility as well.
Putting yourself out there, going on podcasts like this, talking at events. I do quite a lot of networking as well. While most of the networking events I go to are for other small business owners, so they’re unlikely to hire me themselves, they may well know somebody who does. I have work coming in roundabout ways through people I’ve connected with at networking events.
Work comes from a variety of places, which is really nice. I like the fact that it comes from different places. It’s nice when people come back to me. The example I gave about organisations that have hired me to do a training course and then come back to ask if I can coach some of their employees, it’s really nice to hear from them again and maintain that relationship.
People come back to me more than once, so hopefully that means I’m doing a good job.
Darren: It certainly does. You’ve just said some magic words there as well. When you were talking about being seen online, you talked about consistency, which is a massively important word. There are a lot of people who, as you say, think it feels weird posting stuff on LinkedIn. “I don’t know what to write about. I don’t know what to say.”
But if you are consistent with it and you are saying the same message and talking about the same subjects, as presumably you are with neurodiversity, people will follow you and see that’s what you talk about. You are the expert in that. So when they think, “I do need somebody to help me with that,” they know to come to you because they feel like they already know you. They’ve seen everything you write about.
When you talked about networking groups as well, I mean, you’ve cracked it straight away. There are loads of people who go to networking groups and don’t understand. You mentioned there are lots of small businesses in the room. People will go there and say, “These aren’t my target clients. There’s no point me going to these. They’re not going to be able to hire me.”
It’s not about that. It’s not about going there and selling to the room. It’s about who they know. The accountant there might have 200 or 300 clients. How many of those might be housing associations that could use you? Actually, four or five of them. That’s the point of going to those things.
I think you’ve cracked that. A lot of people don’t understand that. They go all the time and they just don’t get it.
Aileen: It’s taken me a while. I must admit, I felt very uncomfortable about all of it. I’m not somebody who naturally puts themselves out there. But when you’re running your own business, you have to. If I just sit in my spare room every day and potter away in front of my laptop, nobody is going to know I exist.
It was a case of, if I want to do this and I want to do it well, I have to put myself out there.
I was talking to somebody this morning who’s recently set up her own business and I was sharing a few stories. You don’t have to throw yourself into it straight away. If it’s something that makes you feel quite anxious or uncomfortable, with something like LinkedIn, you can start by liking a few posts, connecting with a few people, liking their posts, then building up to commenting on people’s posts and eventually posting yourself.
That whole consistency is about getting yourself out there consistently, but also what you were saying about having a consistent message. I didn’t fully understand that when I first started. I didn’t really know who my ideal client was and I was trying to appeal to too many people. Then you realise quite quickly that doesn’t work. It doesn’t mean you can’t work with other people, but in terms of your marketing and getting your message out there, that consistency in your messaging is really important as well.
With networking as well, what that’s given me is being part of community. I think when you reframe how you see networking, because people go into networking events and think, “I’m just going in there to see what work I can get.” Lots of people do that and they walk away disappointed.
What I’ve found is that by not thinking about it like that, and thinking about what I can offer other people as well, it makes a difference. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that very often I walk into a room and within minutes I’m talking to somebody else with ADHD. We just seem to gravitate towards each other like a magnet.
Or if I introduce myself and say what I do, people come and tell me their stories. People want to talk. They want to share their stories. So it’s about being part of the community.
I’ve made some really good friends at networking events, people I’ve got to know. We’re unlikely to use each other’s services, but that doesn’t matter. You’ve got people around you, because running your own business is hard. It can be really hard. It can be isolating. But when you have other people around you who understand what it’s like, that can be really helpful as well.
I think there are so many advantages to networking, no matter how uncomfortable you might feel in the very beginning when you walk into a room full of people you don’t know.
One of the nice things is that I live in Edinburgh, which is quite a small city. So when I go into networking events, I always meet new people, but I always recognise one or two people as well. There are always a few familiar faces in there, and that’s really nice. I’ve been able to build up those relationships with people, because that’s also what business is about: building relationships with people, for them to get to know you and trust you and think, “I might recommend you to somebody.”
So yes, I think there are no downsides to it.
Darren:
Business is about relationships, because people buy from people.
Aileen: Yes, exactly.
Darren: As you beautifully touched on there as well, a lot of people will go to networking events because they want to grow their business. They want to get sales. They want to get new clients.
But they’ll go back and they’ll stay because of the relationships. They’ll go and stay because of the advice. Where else can you go to a group of people and speak to a solicitor you know well, and say, “I’ve just had this problem. Could you give me some advice on that?” And you’ll get free advice from them.
You can speak to an accountant. You can speak to a mortgage broker and ask for advice. “My mortgage is due for renewal. What do you think the best options are for me?” And it doesn’t cost you anything because you’re getting this support.
Whereas as a business owner on your own, you’re isolated. You don’t get this normally. So yes, they’re great for that.
Aileen: Definitely. I love the fact I’ve met so many people I would never have met otherwise. If I hadn’t gone to these networking events, I wouldn’t have met people who are doing all sorts of different things.
It really opens your eyes to the number of businesses that are out there that you’d never even heard of. Meeting people who are doing things completely different to what I’m doing, but we might still share some of the same struggles.
It’s really nice being able to share that with people, and also to celebrate some of your achievements as well. If things are going well, it’s lovely to be able to speak to other people who get it, who understand that high when perhaps you’ve got a new client or something has gone really well. Not just when times are hard.
So yes, it’s great meeting lots of new people who you probably wouldn’t come into contact with anywhere else.
Darren: Speaking of meeting new people, we are pretty much out of time now. Anyone listening to this thinking, “I would love to speak to you and find out more about what you do,” maybe get you to come in and train some of my staff, put some talks on, or maybe speak at one of my events, what’s the best way for someone to get in touch with you?
Aileen: Either through my website, which is aileencarson.com, or I’m on LinkedIn and Instagram. My email address is aileen@aileencarson.com. Those are probably the best ways to get in touch with me.
Darren: Aileen, thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast.
Aileen: Thank you very much for having me.
About the guest:
Aileen Carson is a neurodiversity trainer, coach and keynote speaker who supports organisations to build more neuroinclusive workplaces and helps neurodivergent people work in ways that suit their strengths. With more than 30 years’ professional experience across the public, private and third sectors, including senior management roles, Aileen brings a practical, strengths-based approach to training and coaching. Her work focuses on helping employers remove barriers, support neurodivergent staff and create working environments where people can thrive.
You can connect with Aileen here:
Website: https://www.aileencarson.com/
LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/aileencarson
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aileen_carson_coaching/
Email: aileen@aileencarson.com
About your host:
Darren has worked within digital marketing since the last century, and was the first in-house web designer for video games retailer GAME in the UK, known as Electronics Boutique in the States. After co-founding his own agency, Engage Web, in 2009, Darren has worked with clients around the world, including Australia, Canada and the USA.
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/engaging-marketeer/id1612454837
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenjamieson/
Engaging Marketeer: https://engagingmarketeer.com
Engage Web: https://www.engageweb.co.uk
