[00:00:43]
Darren Jamieson:
Today on the Engaging Marketeer, I am joined by Jack Walker from OptiModo Marketing. We’re going to be talking pretty heavily about Facebook Ads, because Jack is deep into it—we’re talking targeting, ad types, and how to actually generate revenue, not just burn budget.
And Jack’s a BNI member too, so we might end up talking a little bit about that as well.
Jack Walker: Yeah—it’s not just about showing up to networking and expecting results. If you turn up and don’t do anything else, you’re actually hurting your reputation. People think you’re not interested.
Darren Jamieson: Exactly. And the personal development side gets overlooked.
Jack Walker: 100%. It’s like Christmas when you’re a kid. You start networking like, “Me, me, me, gimme, gimme.” But once you mature, giving referrals becomes more satisfying. Give, give, give—and it comes back to you twofold.
There are people doing one-to-ones in BNI who aren’t even showing up themselves—they’re sending other staff instead, turning it into a sales pitch. That’s not how BNI works. It ruins relationships.
Darren Jamieson: So what made you join BNI, especially as a marketing agency when most chapters already have one?
Jack Walker: Honestly, personal development. My coach told me to go. It was still on Zoom. But I joined because I knew I needed to grow as a person. Confidence, communication—it’s everything when you run a business.
Darren Jamieson: And that’s the key—explaining what you do in layman’s terms. So many businesses talk in jargon. If people don’t understand you, they won’t refer you.
Jack Walker: Exactly! I say this all the time—you’re talking at too high an IQ level. Speak simple. Educate clearly. People prefer to over-understand than under-understand.
Darren Jamieson: So what made you launch OptiModo?
Jack Walker: I love competition. I come from a family of business owners. I like challenges. And yeah, the agency space is full of cowboys, but if someone’s smarter than me, I’ll outwork them.
It’s not that doing the work is hard—it’s building trust. We don’t do contracts. Everything is based on results and relationships.
Marketing only works if your product is good. If your shoes fall apart after 10,000 steps, no amount of ads will fix that.
Darren Jamieson: Totally agree. The industry’s flooded with amateurs. How do you approach a client who’s been burned before?
Jack Walker: We give free advice. We’ll literally help them assess their current agency—what reports are they getting? ROI with fees included? If it’s not working, we’ll show you why.
A lot of agencies hide behind vague metrics. We focus on actual return on investment, not just ad spend. Big difference.
People say, “Marketing doesn’t work.” But that’s like saying “Fish can’t climb trees.” Wrong tool, wrong goal.
You want stats? Over 102 trillion emails are sent each year. The landscape is saturated. But if you’re good, you’ll stand out.
Some agencies even lock clients out of their own ad accounts. One client spent £50k, and when they cancelled, the agency deleted everything. Not okay.
Darren Jamieson: So is Facebook Ads your main focus?
Jack Walker: Yeah. Paid ads are where we thrive. The space is competitive, which is great—it filters out the weak. We love it.
Darren Jamieson: Are Facebook Ads getting more expensive?
Jack Walker: Definitely. Ad spend is up 6.4% year on year—billions more. Supply and demand. More businesses = more cost.
That’s why you need to fail fast. One month of testing is enough to know if something works. If not, move on.
Targeting is key, but content is king. You can’t run terrible creatives and expect results.
Don’t sell the product—sell the journey. Take people from A to B. Shampoo is shampoo—but the brand and experience sell it.
[00:20:15]
Darren Jamieson:
Let’s talk targeting. Facebook’s removing more options all the time. Is it harder now to build the right audience?
Jack Walker: Honestly? We’ve found that open targeting can work better.
If you’re selling skincare to women aged 30–40, yeah, you’ll set some parameters—but we always test open targeting. Facebook’s algorithm knows more than we do. Let it figure it out.
Think of it like fishing—you dip your hand in different spots. Facebook does that automatically. You just say, “We got results here—scale it.”
The algorithm changes all the time. You need to learn to run with it. Not fight it. But you also need to track properly. UTM codes. Sales. Not just ROAS.
Darren Jamieson: So track sales, not likes and shares?
Jack Walker: Exactly. Engagement doesn’t pay the bills. You want sales. And yeah—it’s gotten harder. But that’s great if you know what you’re doing. You stand out more.
You wouldn’t walk into a High Street store with no sign and one product. But people build Facebook pages like that—no content, no brand, no reason to trust them.
Darren Jamieson: And then they wonder why the ad doesn’t work.
Jack Walker: Exactly! Content supports your ads. Show customer reviews. Educate. Build trust.
Over 55% of buyers research you on social media before buying.
Marketing is like a table—you wouldn’t expect a table to stand with one leg. Why run your business with one marketing channel?
Darren Jamieson: Facebook often recommends campaign settings. Placement. Budgets. Should we trust them?
Jack Walker: Mixed bag. Facebook wants you to spend more. But they also want you to succeed, because if you succeed, you’ll spend more.
Still—we don’t follow their recommendations blindly. That’s how you end up like everyone else.
If you do what every other brand does, you’ll blend in. We use data—we test different placements, formats, creatives. Stories might get more clicks, but feeds might get more sales.
Split test everything—static images, video, carousels. The only thing that matters is profit.
Darren Jamieson: What about lead forms and Messenger ads?
Jack Walker: We don’t use Messenger. Lead forms, yes—they’re great for volume, but they come with spam.
Facebook autofills name, email, phone… but people forget they submitted it. So we integrate with CRMs and text them instantly to say, “Hey, thanks for your interest.”
The key? Systems. If a lead becomes a customer, take them off the follow-up funnel. Don’t keep emailing someone who’s already booked. It looks messy.
Darren Jamieson: So the backend system—sales process—is just as important?
Jack Walker: Absolutely. We had a client spending a couple grand a week. I told them, “Don’t spend more—fix your conversion rate.” Leads were sitting untouched for days. Fix that, and revenue doubled.
Let’s say you’re spending £1,000 a month with a 1% conversion rate. Doubling your conversion rate is cheaper than doubling your ad spend. Simple maths.
[00:31:01]
Darren Jamieson:
The number of times I’ve had that same conversation… businesses want SEO, but their website doesn’t convert. They won’t accept it. Usually it’s a Wix site a family member built.
Jack Walker: Yeah, and look—we don’t slag off other agencies. But there’s a lot of rubbish out there.
We had one client whose last agency built their ad account. Spent £50k+ on it. When the contract ended? They cut all access. That’s the client’s data!
Darren Jamieson:
I’ve seen that too—pixels deleted, accounts nuked. And the client’s left with nothing.
Jack Walker: It’s an unregulated market. That’s the issue. People don’t know what “good” looks like. So they go with the cheapest. And the cheapest option? Often the most expensive long-term.
Darren Jamieson: Are you more focused on Facebook ads than SEO?
Jack Walker: Yeah—we’re a small agency, but our strength is paid ads.
A lot of people avoid them because they’re “too competitive.” For me, that’s great! More competition means more need for people like us. Bring it on.
Darren Jamieson: Are Facebook ads actually getting more expensive?
Jack Walker: 100%. And that’s normal. It’s supply and demand.
During COVID, the big brands pulled out, so CPAs dropped. Now, confidence is back, budgets are up, and ads are more expensive again.
But again—it’s a good thing. The more expensive it gets, the better you have to be. It weeds out the amateurs.
People don’t want to try anymore. “Too much competition.” That’s not a reason to quit. It’s a reason to beat them.
Darren Jamieson: So how do you know when not to use Facebook ads?
Jack Walker: Simple: if we can’t get results in the first month, we stop.
Fail fast. Don’t drag it out for four months. If it’s not working, test something else. Maybe direct mail works better. We even pass people on to other agencies if needed.
Darren Jamieson: So… what should a business get in place before running Facebook ads?
Jack Walker: Two things:
-
Capacity – Can you handle the leads?
-
Product or service – Is it actually good?
If your product sucks, ads won’t help. Focus on value. Surprise people. Give them something extra. Like a window cleaner who leaves flowers or a note—it’s memorable.
The biggest mistake people make? Thinking throwing more money will fix the issue. It won’t.
We never leave testing phase. Ever. Even with a winner, we test new creatives, placements, angles. Continuous improvement.
People think testing is a phase. It’s not. It’s a mindset.
[00:39:55]
Jack Walker: One tool I can’t believe more people don’t use? The Facebook Ad Library.
You can literally see what ads your competitors are running. And here’s the trick:
If an ad’s been running since October 2022 and is still live… it’s making them money. Nobody keeps an ad running that long unless it’s working.
We reverse-engineer those ads. Look at why it’s working—what it says, how it looks, the structure. You don’t copy it—you learn from it.
Next step: market research. Look at their Google ads, website, offers. Are you on par? If not—how do you position your USP better?
Darren Jamieson: What would you say to a business thinking of doing Facebook ads for the first time?
Jack Walker: Start with test orders. Get your mates to buy something. Test your checkout flow. Can they print a shipping label? No? Fix that before you spend a penny on ads.
Jack Walker: And speak to people who’ve done it. Maybe not me, maybe not you—but someone who’s run actual Facebook ads and seen real results.
Darren Jamieson: A lot of people rely on one form of marketing. It’s like a table with one leg.
Jack Walker: Exactly! I always ask, “How many legs does your table have?” They say four. So why are you balancing your business on one marketing method?
Diversify. Email, SEO, paid, social, partnerships—each one adds stability.
Worst thing you can do is scale a broken process. Get a lead, wait four days to respond, and then wonder why conversion is low.
Darren Jamieson: What about when Facebook gives you suggestions—like “increase budget” or “expand targeting”?
Jack Walker: Facebook wants you to win—but they also want you to spend. We don’t follow their recommendations blindly.
If everyone follows the same advice, we all look the same. You’ve got to stand out.
We don’t care about clickthrough rates. We care about sales. That’s where the money is.
Test static vs. video vs. carousel vs. story. Then go where the ROI is. Simple.
Darren Jamieson: What’s your view on lead forms and Messenger ads?
Jack Walker: Messenger—no. But lead forms? Love them.
They’re quick, they auto-fill, they stay on Facebook—great for the user. But… they’re too easy. You’ll get spam.
The key is systemisation. As soon as a lead comes in, they should get an SMS, email, and someone following up fast.
If they buy? They should be removed from follow-up automations—otherwise you’re still chasing people who already converted.
Worst thing you can do is throw money at ads when your sales process is broken. Fix that first.
[00:48:30]
Darren Jamieson: So many people think: more ads = more sales. But you’re saying it’s not about throwing more money at it?
Jack Walker: Exactly. Sometimes you just need to improve your conversion rate.
Let’s say you’re running an eCommerce site with a 1% conversion rate. You’re spending £1,000 a month on ads and want to double sales.
Most people think: “Spend £2,000.”
I say: Improve conversion to 2%—you double sales without spending more.
Even better—you improve conversion first, and THEN scale. Your cost per sale goes down, profit goes up. That’s smart growth.
Darren Jamieson: I’ve had that same fight. A client wants SEO, but their website’s shocking. Doesn’t convert, doesn’t engage—but they refuse to change it.
Jack Walker: Yeah—and usually it’s built on Wix.
“No offence, my nephew made it…”
I mean, that’s great—but if your site looks like a school project, don’t expect sales.
I never slag competitors off—we’re not here to bash other agencies.
But some are clearly in it to make a quick buck, and that makes it harder for the rest of us.
We don’t do contracts. We charge low fees. It’s results and relationships that matter.
Darren Jamieson: That’s rare. Most agencies lock people in.
Jack Walker: We don’t. Because we know we’ll keep them if we deliver. And if we don’t? They shouldn’t stay!
Honestly, the digital space is full of pirates—people who talk a big game, deliver nothing, and wreck trust.
That’s the hardest part. Not doing the job—rebuilding trust with a client who’s been burned.
Darren Jamieson: How do you approach that? A client who’s already been let down by another agency?
Jack Walker: We go into support mode. We give them free advice, ask them to check their agency’s reports.
Are they getting cost-per-lead info? Real ROI? Are agency fees factored into the ROAS?
If not—there’s your red flag.
We help them benchmark what they should be seeing.
If their agency won’t provide it—then we talk.
Bottom line? You can’t sell someone who doesn’t trust marketing anymore. You have to earn it back.
Darren Jamieson: So what’s your mindset when you’re approaching growth for a client?
Jack Walker: “Fail fast.”
If it’s not working in month one, we cut it.
Find out what doesn’t work and stop doing it. The market’s always shifting—so be quick to adapt.
Too many people waste 4 months chasing a dead strategy. That’s wasted money AND time.
Darren Jamieson: You said something earlier about being lazy… in a good way?
Jack Walker: Yeah! I love that Bill Gates quote—
He hires lazy people because they’ll find the quickest, smartest way to get the job done.
I’m that guy. I want the smartest route, not the hardest one.
[00:54:10]
Darren Jamieson: Let’s talk about the elephant in the ad account—Facebook’s rising costs.
Ads are more expensive. Competition’s higher. Do you think Facebook ads still offer value?
Jack Walker: Absolutely—but only if you know what you’re doing.
CPMs (Cost Per 1,000 Impressions) have gone up massively.
Ad spend went up 6.4% year-on-year recently—sounds small, but when you’re talking billions, it’s huge.
There’s more competition.
Let’s say you’re targeting 30–40-year-old women who like skincare.
Well—so is everyone else.
That’s why we test open targeting.
Darren Jamieson: Open targeting—just letting Facebook decide who to show the ads to?
Jack Walker: Exactly. You give Facebook a broad idea—like women 30–40 in the UK—and let the algorithm find your people.
People think Facebook ads are like fishing—you choose where to cast.
But Facebook already knows where the fish are. You just need to give it space to learn.
We’ll run a broad ad, monitor performance, then duplicate and scale in the areas that work.
Facebook’s smarter than people realise—if you don’t restrict it.
Darren Jamieson: What about tracking? It’s been a mess since the iOS updates.
Jack Walker: That’s been massive.
Since iOS 14, Facebook lost visibility on user behaviour. It’s harder to track conversions and sales properly.
That’s why you need your own tracking—Google Analytics, UTM codes, CRM data.
Don’t just rely on Facebook’s numbers. They’re often inflated or just… wrong.
If Facebook says your ROAS is 3x, but your bank balance says otherwise—you’ve got a problem.
Darren Jamieson: I’ve seen agencies scaling ads based on that dodgy ROAS. Total disaster.
Jack Walker: Exactly. They think they’re making money, but they’re actually scaling losses.
The key is deep, clean data.
Track real conversions. Integrate CRM systems. Set up end-to-end tracking.
Then, once you find what’s working—double down.
[00:58:25]
Darren Jamieson: Let’s talk ad formats—lead forms, Messenger ads… Do you use them much?
Jack Walker: We use lead forms, definitely. Messenger? Not really.
Lead forms are great because they keep people on Facebook, which the algorithm loves. It auto-populates their name, number, email—less friction.
But—and it’s a big one—they’re too easy to complete.
People hit “Submit” without realising what they’ve done. Or they forget 10 minutes later. That leads to low-quality leads and spam.
So we always make sure there’s an instant follow-up—text, email, automation—something that confirms, “Hey, you’ve enquired.”
Darren Jamieson: Right—so it’s not just about capturing leads, it’s about qualifying them straight away?
Jack Walker: Exactly. The follow-up is everything.
We integrate with CRMs, send immediate emails or texts, and set expectations. That way, when our client calls them—they actually remember submitting the form.
Otherwise, they go:
“Who are you? I didn’t enquire…”
And your client looks like a spammer.
But here’s the big one: most businesses don’t have their sales systems sorted.
They run ads before fixing their back end.
So we go in and help them set up automation, clear pipelines, lead tracking… Because if you can’t convert the lead, what’s the point of spending money to get one?
Darren Jamieson: That’s something we’ve said for years with SEO too—people want traffic, but their website doesn’t convert. You’re pouring water into a bucket with no bottom.
Jack Walker: Exactly. You don’t always need to spend more to grow.
Sometimes it’s just about fixing your conversion rate. Double that—and boom, more sales, same ad spend.
We had a client who wanted to double their sales. They were ready to spend more on ads. We said:
“No. Fix your site first.”
They did—and with the same ad budget, they doubled revenue. Just by converting better.
Darren Jamieson: It’s such simple maths. But people still think more money = more results.
Jack Walker: Sometimes, throwing money at the problem is the worst thing you can do.
[01:01:53]
Jack Walker: Let’s take an e-commerce example—a business with a 1% conversion rate, spending £1,000 a month on ads.
To double sales, most people would say, “Let’s double the ad spend.”
But if you spend just £300 fixing your website, and that takes your conversion rate to 2%, you’ve doubled sales without spending another penny on ads.
Darren Jamieson: We have that same conversation with SEO clients all the time.
They want rankings—but their website is awful. Usually a Wix site built by a cousin.
Jack Walker: I’ve seen that too. And here’s the thing—we’re not in the business of slating other providers. That’s not our style.
We want to outperform, not out-trash someone.
But there are some websites that just scream “template.” If you land on a site and it still has a Black Friday banner in February, you immediately question whether the company can handle your customer service.
It’s simple: how you do one thing is how you do everything.
Darren Jamieson: Totally agree. I’ve seen Facebook ads still running Christmas offers in March. People forget, or they just don’t care that they’re burning money.
Jack Walker: Which brings me to this: what do you think of sales, Darren? I mean like, “30% off everything!”—those kind of campaigns?
Darren Jamieson: Great question.
Years ago, I worked with GAME. Their marketing manager once told me:
“If you win a customer on price, you’ll lose them on price.”
Discounting is not a long-term strategy. It’s better to position yourself as better value, not cheaper.
Jack Walker: Exactly! And here’s an analogy I love…
Water.
You can buy it for 50p at Lidl…
£2 at Waitrose…
£4 at a festival…
£6 on a plane.
Same product—different value depending on where it’s sold.
It’s not about what the product is. It’s about what it means to the buyer at that moment.
You don’t sell the product—you sell the journey from A to B. You’re the vehicle, not the destination.
[01:04:49]
Jack Walker: It’s like with shampoo—most do the same thing. What makes the difference? Marketing. Branding. Storytelling.
The product is secondary. The perception of value is what people are really buying.
Darren Jamieson: Yeah. It’s not about how great your product is. If no one knows about it—or understands it—it’s irrelevant.
Jack Walker: 100%. That’s where Facebook ads shine—if you use them right.
But if you just shout, “Buy this!”—people won’t care.
You’ve got to show them:
How it helps.
What problem it solves.
What others are saying about it.
And you’ve got to do it with content, not just ads. Organic and paid work together.
You need a full table—not just one leg.
Darren Jamieson: I love that. Like you said earlier—how many legs does your table have?
If it’s just one, it’s not stable. Your marketing should have multiple pillars: Facebook ads, SEO, email, content, referrals, organic.
Jack Walker: Exactly. Don’t rely on one thing to carry your business.
And speaking of legs on the table—some people pour all their money into one campaign. Then when it doesn’t work? Panic.
But if you’ve got four or five strategies running, you can adapt. You’re not putting your whole business on a single bet.
Darren Jamieson: Absolutely. I always say: don’t build your entire business on rented land.
If Facebook changes their algorithm, and that’s your only channel? You’re done.
Jack Walker: Yep. Same goes for TikTok, Instagram, whatever’s trending. Use them—but build something you own too. Like your email list. Your website.
If social media disappears tomorrow, what’s left?
Darren Jamieson: Yeah—your brand. Your systems. Your actual customer base.
So—last question for you, Jack. If someone wants to work with you, or they’re struggling with their marketing, what’s the best way to reach out?
Jack Walker: Easiest way? Head to our website: OptiModo Marketing—that’s O-P-T-I-M-O-D-O marketing.
Or just search Jack Walker on LinkedIn—I should be in the top few results. Bright orange branding. You can’t miss it.
Even if we’re not the right fit, I’m always happy to chat. If we can help, great. If not, we’ll point you in the right direction.
Darren Jamieson: Brilliant. Jack, thank you—it’s been an absolute masterclass today.
Jack Walker: Appreciate it, mate. Thanks for having me on.
