[00:35] Darren Jamieson:
On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking with Aileen Carson, who is a neurodiversity trainer and speaker.
Aileen works with businesses on how they can be better prepared and help neurodivergent members of staff, but she also works with neurodivergent people on how they can get better at portraying themselves and working better in the workplace to be the best versions of themselves.
So, you are a neurodiversity trainer and speaker. There’ll be people who hear the word neurodiversity and just think it means autism. There’ll be other people who don’t know what neurodiversity means. So could you just very succinctly explain what neurodiversity encompasses?
[01:23] Aileen Carson:
Yes. So neurodiversity is the natural variation in how our brains work. We all process information differently. We all experience the world differently. And that’s a completely natural variation in how our brains work.
There’s no right or wrong way of thinking, or of processing information, or of experiencing the world. Neurodiversity encompasses a large variety of different conditions or neurotypes, such as autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Tourette syndrome, and lots more.
So, basically, it’s about how our brains work and the fact that our brains all work differently.
[02:06] Darren Jamieson:
So, as you mentioned, all of our brains work differently. Everybody is slightly different from somebody else. Does that mean everybody, to some degree, is neurodiverse?
[02:17] Aileen Carson:
It’s a really interesting question, and there’s always lots to debate about that.
One of the things that tends to determine whether somebody is neurodivergent or not is that, while we all have strengths and weaknesses, neurodivergent people tend to have larger gaps between their strengths and weaknesses. This is called a spiky profile.
If you’re neurodivergent, you will have a spiky profile, which basically means there are much larger gaps between your strengths and weaknesses. If you’re neurotypical, there tends to be much smaller gaps, so you won’t really have a spiky profile. It’ll be much flatter.
[02:58] Darren Jamieson:
Have you got an example of the kind of things people would be really good at versus the kind of things they would be very bad at?
[03:07] Aileen Carson:
Yes. Although everybody is different, there are some commonalities.
Very often, neurodivergent people tend to be very creative. They may be very good at problem solving. Some people, particularly those with ADHD, can be very good at being hyperfocused — just being so completely focused on what they’re doing that they don’t notice the time passing.
The kinds of things that people have more difficulty with tend to be around executive functions. That’s things like memory, concentration, time management — those kinds of things that we need on a daily basis to help us achieve our goals and get through our day-to-day work.
So there are some commonalities. While everybody is different, things like creativity, problem solving, and spotting patterns that perhaps other people don’t see can often be real strengths in neurodivergent people.
But executive function things — memory, concentration, focus, time management — tend to be harder for neurodivergent people.
[04:26] Darren Jamieson:
So how would somebody know if they were neurodivergent?
[04:32] Aileen Carson:
If you wanted a diagnosis, that would usually be done by a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
I’m sure a lot of your listeners will be aware that there are very, very long waiting lists for assessments. Lots of people, myself included, suspect that they’re neurodivergent even without a diagnosis.
[04:55] Darren Jamieson:
Oh, so you’ve not had a diagnosis yourself, even though you work in this field and you suspect that you are?
[04:59] Aileen Carson:
Yes, I don’t have a diagnosis. Partly because it was much later in life when I realised that I probably was neurodivergent.
I very strongly suspect that I have ADHD. I’ve never done anything about seeking a diagnosis, partly because, for me, I don’t really feel that I need one.
I think it would be different if I wasn’t running my own business and I was employed somewhere. A diagnosis might be more helpful for me. You don’t need a diagnosis, I should say, to ask for any adjustments at work. But I think it might be more helpful for me personally if I was an employee somewhere.
Because I run my own business, I have a lot more flexibility. I can make adjustments whenever I need. I can work at a time of day that suits me best. I can do different types of work at different times of day that suit me best.
So I’ve never really felt the need for a diagnosis. But knowing a lot about ADHD and neurodiversity in general, I have self-diagnosed, if you like, which is absolutely valid.
[06:03] Darren Jamieson:
Well, I imagine for you, as you are a speaker in neurodiversity, it sounds a strange way to say this, but it might add to your credibility if you were diagnosed as neurodivergent.
[06:17] Aileen Carson:
Yes, absolutely. You’re absolutely right.
I often think that, particularly as I run training courses and I’m also a coach with neurodivergent people, if I actually had that diagnosis, that possibly would give me more credibility.
It’s never been an issue for me as far as I’m aware. I don’t think anybody has decided not to work with me because I don’t have that diagnosis. But a lot of the people I work with don’t have a diagnosis either, and there are such long waiting lists.
If you’re trying to get an assessment on the NHS, you can go private, but obviously that will cost money. Not everybody can afford that. Also, with some private providers, there are long waiting lists as well. So while it will still be a quicker process, you might still have to wait for a while.
There are various reasons why not all neurodivergent people have a diagnosis. There are also people out there who are neurodivergent but might not know that they’re neurodivergent. They might just never have come up against any barriers, or any invisible barriers that might be there.
Some people don’t want a diagnosis, and that’s absolutely fine as well. For some people, it’s very important. They want to be able to put a name to what it is that they’re experiencing.
Not everybody knows that you don’t need a diagnosis to request adjustments at work, so some people feel they need to have that diagnosis in order to have a conversation with their employer or manager, although it’s not actually necessary.
[07:44] Darren Jamieson:
I imagine putting the name to it would help you understand what your requirements were. Whereas before, you might not know. You might be uncertain of what would be beneficial to you and what wouldn’t.
[07:54] Aileen Carson:
Yes, it can be a really difficult question, I think, for both managers and their team members, because sometimes people don’t know what would help.
They might be aware that they’re having difficulties in a particular area, but they might not know what they’re entitled to or what they can ask for. In terms of the workplace, there might be a lot of fear or anxiety involved in actually bringing this to someone’s attention.
Sometimes people who think they might be neurodivergent might not be sure how safe it is to mention that at work — and for good reason. I’ve worked with people who have lost their jobs because they’ve been neurodivergent. I’ve worked with people who have been told they won’t progress in their career.
So there are very good reasons why somebody might not want to draw attention to themselves. They might not want to say to their employer that they’ve had a diagnosis.
For managers, it can be difficult as well, because sometimes managers want to help. They might notice that somebody appears to be having difficulties in a particular area, and they might want to help, but not be sure how to do it. They might not know what kind of questions to ask, or whether to mention anything at all, particularly if that person hasn’t come to them.
So there can be lots of reasons why these conversations don’t take place in the workplace.
[09:15] Darren Jamieson:
I can appreciate that.
My daughter — she’s 23 now — a few years ago was insistent she had ADHD and wanted to be diagnosed for it. Presumably it’s easier for children to get diagnosed than adults. I would assume, maybe not.
But we decided not to because I was worried how it would affect her going into university and employment if she was diagnosed.
The other point I wanted to make before you answer that one was: it’s not like a CCJ or a criminal conviction. Presumably, if you do get diagnosed with ADHD, you don’t have to disclose it at every opportunity and let people know.
[09:54] Aileen Carson:
No, absolutely. You don’t have to disclose it to anybody. You might choose to, and that’s fine, but you don’t have to.
In terms of the workplace, again, you’re under no obligation to tell your employer if you’ve had a recent diagnosis, or even if you think you might have ADHD or be of any other neurotype.
On your question about children and adults, there are a lot more people being diagnosed in adulthood, mainly because they were missed in childhood. I think now there’s more awareness, and there are certain things that might be picked up earlier in children.
When I think back to when I was at school a very, very long time ago, there would undoubtedly have been some neurodivergent children in my class, but it wouldn’t have been picked up. I don’t think these things were really talked about then. People didn’t have the same awareness or knowledge, whereas now there’s a lot more awareness.
That’s one of the reasons why more people are coming forward for assessments, because they’ve recognised that there may be something in them.
What sometimes happens as well is that if a child has a diagnosis, the parents may then start to think, “Actually…” They may recognise some signs in themselves and their children. That can get adults starting to question whether or not they’re neurodivergent as well, and that may prompt them to seek a diagnosis themselves.
So there are a lot of adults out there who are either being diagnosed, or starting to think they could be neurodivergent themselves, and trying to figure out whether a diagnosis would be helpful for them.
With a diagnosis, while it’s a very personal decision whether to go through the assessment or not, it can open doors. For example, some people with ADHD are on medication, and without that diagnosis, you’re not going to get that medication. So it can open doors for treatment or support that you might find much harder to access without a diagnosis.
[11:47] Darren Jamieson:
I imagine there are some sections of the media that are not helping matters at all.
You mentioned there were children in school when you were in school that clearly were neurodivergent, but it wasn’t picked up. I can certainly think of somebody when I was in primary school who was absolutely neurodivergent, but it wasn’t picked up.
But you get people of a certain age saying things like, “Autism didn’t exist when I was in school,” or, “Vaccines must cause autism because we didn’t have vaccines when I was in school, and now we do and now people are autistic.”
It’s like, “Well, it did exist. You just didn’t know about it.”
That can’t help with making it acceptable to be diagnosed and making it okay to talk about it, surely?
[12:28] Aileen Carson:
Yes, it just adds to the stigma. There is still a stigma attached to neurodivergence, and misinformation — some of the things out there in the news, the media, and social media — doesn’t help.
You have to be very careful where you’re getting your information from. There are lots of trusted sources out there, but there are also so many people saying, “Everybody’s autistic these days,” or, “Everybody’s got ADHD these days,” or, “We never had that in my day.”
We’ve always been here. These things just weren’t picked up before. It’s not a new thing. Neurodivergence has been around for a very, very long time. There may just not have been a name for it many years ago. There wouldn’t have been the same kind of awareness, and it would have been a lot harder for people.
I think it’s important that if you are thinking you might be neurodivergent, you get the right information, because there are so many sections of the media where the information is not helpful.
It also doesn’t help when people in the public eye use neurodivergence as an excuse for very bad behaviour. There are people who are genuinely struggling and not using excuses, but when people in the public eye say, “I did this because I’m autistic,” or, “I did this because I have ADHD,” that doesn’t help. It just amplifies some of the stereotypes and stigma surrounding neurodiversity.
[14:00] Darren Jamieson:
There’s a really good social media personality — I suppose you’d call him a social media personality. He’s done work with councils and things like that.
His son’s autistic, and every now and then he shares this post he made probably four or five years ago now, where a woman said to his son that he doesn’t look autistic. The line was, “You don’t look autistic? Oh, I’m sorry, Luke. Would you please do an autism for the lady?”
[14:25] Aileen Carson:
Yes, I’ve seen that one.
[14:28] Darren Jamieson:
You’ve seen that one. That’s Simon Harris. He’s been on this podcast before. He’s really good.
[14:32] Aileen Carson:
It’s so true. There are so many stereotypes out there.
I think people find that a lot — that they’re told things like that. Even by medical professionals sometimes. I’ve had clients who have gone to see their GP to ask to be referred for an assessment, and they’ve been told, “You can’t be autistic because you’re married and you have a family,” or, “You can’t be autistic because you can maintain eye contact.”
That doesn’t help either.
[15:02] Darren Jamieson:
Autistic people can’t get married. That’s the lesson there.
[15:03] Aileen Carson:
Yes, it’s like, “Well, you won’t find it easy to have relationships with people,” or, “You won’t find it easy to maintain eye contact,” or all these kinds of things.
Or people with ADHD are always late for things. Some are, but although I strongly suspect I have ADHD, I’m the opposite of that. I’m never late for anything. I can’t bear being late for things.
That’s also another sign of ADHD, which I didn’t realise. It was one of the reasons I kept telling myself for quite a long time that I couldn’t possibly have ADHD, because I’m not late for things. The stereotype is that people with ADHD are always late and can never turn up on time, or experience time blindness.
A lot of people do, but not everybody. There are lots of stereotypes out there, and even people who you’d think would be much more aware of what neurodiversity actually is can still be a bit blinkered by some of these stereotypes.
[15:59] Darren Jamieson:
I was just thinking when you said about not being late — I’m like that. I cannot be late for anything.
I will usually turn up for a networking event or a meeting a good half an hour beforehand, sometimes an hour beforehand, because I do not want to walk into a room full of people. I want to be the first person in the room and have other people walk in. That way, I feel comfortable.
[16:20] Aileen Carson:
I’m exactly the same, actually.
If there’s a small number of people there, that’s fine. But walking into a room that’s full of people, and trying to start that initial conversation when everybody else is already involved in a conversation, is really difficult.
So yes, I’m always early for that reason, but also I just have this thing about being late. I cannot be late for anything. If I’m waiting for somebody and they’re running late, the anxiety that fills me with is incredible.
[16:47] Darren Jamieson:
It’s curious, because you mentioned not being late. Do you know the former footballer — very famous man — David Beckham?
[16:54] Aileen Carson:
Oh yes.
[16:54] Darren Jamieson:
He has a compulsion where he cannot be late for anything.
There was somebody who played a practical joke — I think it was James Corden — where he deliberately delayed him so that he was late for a particular meeting, and it drove him nuts.
[17:09] Aileen Carson:
That would freak me out so much. That’s my worst nightmare, being late for something. And if somebody else makes me late as well.
My husband is much more relaxed about timekeeping than I am. He’s got wise to this now, but if we were ever going out somewhere together, I would tell him we needed to leave about half an hour earlier than we actually did.
[17:30] Darren Jamieson:
I do that.
[17:35] Aileen Carson:
It doesn’t work anymore, though, because we’ve been together a long time. He now knows exactly what I’m doing.
[17:37] Darren Jamieson:
I stagger people based on how late I know they’re going to be. I’ll tell my sister an hour beforehand, I’ll tell my son half an hour beforehand, and I’ll tell my daughter the right time.
You mentioned speaking to your GP about being diagnosed. There are going to be people listening to this who will be thinking, “Am I neurodiverse? I don’t know.”
How do they go about it if they want to be diagnosed? What are the steps?
[18:09] Aileen Carson:
The first port of call usually is the GP. So go along to your GP, explain why you think you might need an assessment, and ask for a referral.
I would think about whether or not you want that diagnosis, and what it will mean for you if you get it. It is a very long process. Because of the waiting lists, people can be waiting for years and years.
So I think I would be realistic. If you are looking for a diagnosis, be very realistic about how long it could take.
Also, the systems are different depending on what part of the country you’re in. If you’re in England, it’s a different system than if you’re in Scotland.
Basically, your GP would be the first port of call for a referral, and then after that, you would be referred to a psychiatrist or psychologist. The assessment process is different depending on what neurotype you think you might be.
Nothing happens quickly. So I would think about why you want the diagnosis, what you think it might do for you, and whether it will open doors for treatment or support if that’s what you need. Or whether it’s more that you just want peace of mind. You want to know there’s something going on and what it is.
Also, be prepared that when you go through the assessment process, you might not get the result you’re expecting. It might be that you’re not neurodivergent.
I was working with somebody recently who had an assessment for autism and it turned out he wasn’t autistic. So I think it’s about preparing yourself that it can be a lengthy process, and you may or may not get the result you’re looking for.
[19:57] Darren Jamieson:
But even getting an appointment with your GP is difficult.
[20:02] Aileen Carson:
Yes. Even that can take a while.
[20:04] Darren Jamieson:
Is there any preliminary stuff you can do for that? Because you said go in and explain what it is that you think you might have — ADHD, autism, or whatever it may be.
What if you’ve got no idea? You just think, “I’m a bit different to other people. I know I’m a bit different to other people, but I don’t really know how or in what way.”
And you don’t want to put a label on it because you’ve got no real idea. How can you get an indication before you even speak to a GP of what you think you might have?
[20:32] Aileen Carson:
I would think about the kinds of things that you might be finding difficult, and the reasons why you’ve noticed that you’re different to the people around you.
What is it that makes you think you’re different? You might do things differently. You might feel different to other people. So perhaps think about what it is that makes you different, and what difficulties you’re having.
The more information you can give your GP, the easier it will be for them to think, “Okay, what kind of assessment might this person need?”
Even if you don’t know, even if you can’t put a name to it yourself, that’s absolutely fine. But have a think about what it is that’s difficult for you.
We often talk about the difficulties, and with neurodivergence people talk a lot about perceived deficits, but neurodivergent people have real strengths as well. It might be that you’ve noticed you’re exceptionally good at something, and the people around you are maybe not so good at that.
So while looking at the difficulties is something people often focus on, I think it’s just as important to look at the strengths you’re having as well. That could be another difference between you and the people around you.
You might also have neurodivergent relatives. If one of your parents is neurodivergent, you might have noticed some common traits between you and your mum or dad.
A lot of parents, when they have a child who’s diagnosed, notice traits within themselves that they’ve also spotted in their child.
There could be all sorts of things you might have picked up on. The more information you can give someone like your GP, the easier it will be for them.
[22:21] Darren Jamieson:
Like lining all the cars up in a row, or separating all the sweets into colour before you eat them. That kind of thing.
[22:28] Aileen Carson:
Something like that.
[22:29] Darren Jamieson:
You keep mentioning tests and assessments. I’m thinking in my head, what on earth is that? Are we putting our fingers into electrical stuff? Are we getting scans? Are we doing quizzes? Are we looking at colour blocks and saying what we think they are?
What sort of tests are these? Because I’ve got fear of what these might be.
[22:51] Aileen Carson:
I’m probably not the best person to answer that question, having not been through any assessment myself.
[22:56] Darren Jamieson:
Ah, you need to do it. Get through the assessment.
[23:00] Aileen Carson:
Lots and lots of questions. Sometimes parents might be involved, if parents are still alive.
It can be really helpful for the person doing the assessment not just to hear from you, but also to hear from the people close to you.
Particularly looking back at your childhood as well — seeing how you grew up, how you presented, what was going on for you, and what your behaviours were like when you were a child.
So it won’t necessarily just involve you. It could involve your parents or people close to you as well.
[23:31] Darren Jamieson:
You talked about different skills and things that people are good at. I know the answer to this, but I’m going to ask it anyway for the benefit of other people listening who don’t know the answer. That’s the excuse I’m giving, anyway.
People think of neurodiverse people as being exceptionally good with numbers. Presumably that’s a myth, and not all autistic people are maths geniuses who can do long multiplication in their heads within a fraction of a second.
Is that a myth? And what are the realities in terms of skills that they could be good at that we don’t necessarily know about?
[24:12] Aileen Carson:
It is a bit of a myth, but there are people out there who are exceptionally good at numbers and are maths geniuses. There are also people who really struggle with that.
So I would say it’s very much an individual thing. There are some typical strengths and challenges, but it is different for everybody.
The stereotype that everyone who’s autistic is some kind of maths genius is not the case at all. There are some, definitely, but not everybody is.
There are a lot of myths and stereotypes out there surrounding neurodivergence, particularly around autism and ADHD, I would say. That goes back to what we were saying earlier about the media and social media, and getting the right information.
Certainly, some of the work that I do is about trying to break down some of these stereotypes, getting the right information out there, and increasing awareness. Not just awareness, but actually hoping people take action after they learn the facts rather than some of the myths and stereotypes that are out there.
[25:18] Darren Jamieson:
Do you have numbers, or figures, or even an idea of figures for the number of people in the UK who are classified or diagnosed as neurodivergent, and potentially people who are but haven’t been diagnosed?
[25:34] Aileen Carson:
I don’t have numbers, but it’s generally thought about 15 to 20% of the population is neurodivergent, so up to around a fifth of the population.
[25:45] Darren Jamieson:
That is so much.
[25:47] Aileen Carson:
Yes. I don’t know what the population is, but around 70 million, I think, the UK population.
[25:55] Darren Jamieson:
Wow.
[25:56] Aileen Carson:
So there are a lot of us there.
In some ways, it’s a bit surprising that it’s still treated as very unusual. Actually, it’s not that unusual at all.
[26:10] Darren Jamieson:
Perhaps there’s just not been enough knowledge or awareness about it, because remember, there are people going around saying it didn’t exist in their day. That’s the problem.
So what exactly should employers be doing to help with inclusivity within the workplace for neurodivergent members of staff?
[26:32] Aileen Carson:
There are a number of things. Again, sometimes it can be an individual thing, but when you’re looking at the workplace in general, there can be various barriers that not everybody sees.
Starting from before you even work somewhere, recruitment processes can sometimes be a barrier. There are certain behavioural expectations in an interview.
I know a number of autistic people who have struggled to get through interviews because they find it really difficult to maintain eye contact. The interviewer has wrongly made an assumption that they’re not interested or not paying attention.
So that can be a barrier. If you don’t know that some people have real difficulty maintaining eye contact, that could go against that person.
I think employers should look at recruitment processes and make sure they’re inclusive.
Creating safety in the workplace is a really important one. People will not share that they have a diagnosis, or that they think they might be neurodivergent, if it doesn’t feel safe to do so. That’s a responsibility of everybody in the organisation, not just the leadership team.
It’s about creating safety within a workplace where people feel safe to share, if they want to, that they have a diagnosis. It’s also about making it safe for them to ask for help or support, and know that it won’t be held against them.
So the next time they come up for promotion, it won’t be held against them. They will have the same opportunities as other people.
There are lots of little things people can do to help individuals. For somebody who struggles with noise in an office, for example, noise-cancelling headphones are a really simple thing — really easy to do — and that can make a difference.
The environment is hugely important. It is for everybody, but it can be particularly important for people who have sensory sensitivities. If you are sensitive to noise, bright lights, or smell, then working in an environment that has very strong smells or very bright lights could be really difficult. It can make it much harder for you to work at your best.
I talk quite a lot about what people need to work at their best. I think if employers think, “What do all our employees need to work at their best?” — not just a particular group of employees — that helps.
What some people don’t think about is that if you make a workplace inclusive for neurodivergent people, it will be inclusive for everybody. It’s not about preferential treatment for one particular group of people. It’s about making a workplace inclusive for everybody who works there.
If workplaces are designed with the needs of the people who use them in mind, then the barriers I mentioned before won’t exist. People won’t need to ask for adjustments. We’re a long way off that, but I think if people just think about whether they are unintentionally putting barriers in people’s way — because sometimes these things aren’t done intentionally — that’s important.
There are lots of things people can do, but it starts with thinking about the needs of your employees and what they need to be able to work at their best.
I would also say there’s something about making the most of people’s strengths. So many of my clients have had real problems in the workplace because their employer has focused very much on the difficulties they’re having.
While there may well be a need for that, to help put adjustments in place, if you’re just focusing on the difficulties or challenges that someone’s facing, you may not be taking their strengths into account.
If people are doing work that is aligned with their strengths, and the barriers they face are removed from the workplace, they’ll thrive. If there are lots of barriers in place, and the employer or their manager is focusing solely on the difficulties they’re having, it’s going to be much harder for them to do their best work.
[30:25] Darren Jamieson:
I was thinking about what you were saying then about people with eye contact.
I remember we interviewed somebody here, maybe 15 years ago now, and he couldn’t make eye contact during the interview. His eyes were all over the place. My business partner commented on it, saying, “Did you notice how he just couldn’t maintain eye contact with us?”
But we hired him, because the role was for editor — content editor — so reading and editing content and being really good at grammar. His attention to detail was the best we’ve ever had.
So it is also relevant to the role. It doesn’t matter if somebody can’t maintain eye contact if the role you’re hiring them for is suited to the skills you require.
That’s an interesting point, but it hadn’t occurred to us at the time that when we were interviewing somebody who couldn’t maintain eye contact, he may have other needs. It didn’t occur to us.
I think that’s probably something businesses are lacking, certainly at the interview stage. You don’t necessarily know if someone is doing something you might consider quirky because they have needs, or because they just don’t want to be there, or they’re just not suited to the job.
[31:48] Aileen Carson:
Yes, and I think it doesn’t occur to a lot of people.
Having spoken to some of my clients who have really struggled with interviews and with lots of different parts of recruitment processes, it can be really difficult to get past that.
They may be absolutely perfect for that role. Sometimes, I think employers ask for things during the recruitment process that are not necessarily part of the job. They’re trying to test lots of different skills, but really you just want to test the skills that person needs to be able to do the job well.
For example, I’ve been asked to do presentations at so many job interviews. Sometimes those jobs didn’t require any public speaking or presentation skills at all, but that was just part of the recruitment process because that’s the way it was done. It had always been done like that.
Sometimes putting people on the spot can be part of an interview scenario, but if that’s not part of the role, then why are you testing for that during the recruitment process?
You’re absolutely right. Look at what skills you need for that job. Does that person have those skills?
Just because they can’t maintain eye contact, or perhaps they’re fidgeting a bit, that doesn’t mean they can’t do the job.
I think there’s a real lack of awareness around recruitment, and that can make it harder for people just to get their foot in the door, never mind getting in there and actually doing the job.
When employers focus on people’s strengths, and make sure the people they’re hiring have the strengths to do the job, that’s the main thing.
[33:20] Darren Jamieson:
Right now in the UK — and again, a lot of employers don’t know this; I’ve mentioned it on the podcast before when I’ve spoken to people in recruitment and HR — if you interview somebody and you prejudice against them, for example, you get out of them that they’re expecting a baby, or they’re going to have children in the next couple of years, or even that they smoke, and you don’t give them the job because of that, then you are opening yourself up to potential legal action because you’ve prejudiced against them for something outside their control.
Is there anything right now for neurodiversity? If you were to find out that somebody had ADHD, for example, and then not give them the job, and hire somebody who had very similar skills but didn’t have ADHD, is there any legal protection at the moment for people with neurodiversity when they’re going for interviews?
[34:15] Aileen Carson:
The Equality Act is the one piece of legislation that springs to mind.
I would qualify that by saying I’m not a lawyer, so I wouldn’t want to give any legal advice. But autism and ADHD are almost always classed as disabilities when you look at the definition of disability within the Equality Act.
So if you were to discriminate against somebody because they were autistic or had ADHD, you could very well be in breach of the Equality Act. But as I say, that’s not legal advice. That’s not my area.
[34:56] Darren Jamieson:
So it’s definitely in the employer’s interests to be aware of this, and to be up on everything and all the requirements they need, so that they don’t inadvertently make mistakes like that.
Quite often when people ask, for example, a candidate if they’re expecting a baby, or if they’ve got family plans, they might not know that’s a question they can’t ask. It’s just something they’re generally curious about asking. They don’t know.
So you can accidentally break the law by doing that. And it’s the same with neurodiversity. You can accidentally get yourself into trouble and not realise you’re doing it if you are not aware of what you can and cannot ask during an interview.
[35:38] Darren Jamieson:
What about the other side, the flip side, in terms of candidates?
I know you help people as well who are neurodiverse going into the workplace. What advice would you give to somebody who was neurodiverse in terms of going for a job, going for an interview, and portraying themselves in their best light to be able to do the job to the best of their abilities?
[35:58] Aileen Carson:
It’s quite a difficult question to answer, partly for the same reasons people may or may not want to share with their employer that they have a diagnosis.
If you don’t know what that employer is like, you may not want to draw attention to the fact that you’re neurodivergent.
If you have a diagnosis, it’s very much a personal decision. I sometimes get people asking me that kind of question. Sometimes you might be able to get an idea of how an employer might be likely to respond.
If an employer encourages people to ask for adjustments during the recruitment process, that may give an indication that they are supportive — but not necessarily. You don’t know.
So I tend not to give people advice on this kind of thing because it is very much a personal decision.
If it feels safe to disclose something about yourself, and if you think you might need adjustments in the recruitment process in order for you to come across at your best, then you might want to request those.
But it really is a very personal decision, because very often you don’t know how supportive an employer is before you start working there. It’s a really tricky question to answer.
[37:27] Darren Jamieson:
Surely though, in a perfect world — and the world isn’t perfect — as a candidate looking for a job, if an employer wasn’t willing to make the adjustments I needed, or would prejudice against me if they knew I had it, then that’s not the kind of company I’d want to work for anyway.
So you should really be as honest as you possibly can, to make sure you get the best fit with the company you work for and that they’re going to support you and help you be the best you can be.
[38:02] Aileen Carson:
In an ideal world, yes. I just don’t think that always happens.
You’re right that if an employer seems very reluctant to make any kind of adjustments, or you just don’t get a good feeling about it, then yes, I would be thinking, “No, this is not the right place for me.”
But there are lots of reasons why people might not want to share anything personal about themselves. It’s not just about neurodivergence. It could be that someone has a disability, or a chronic illness, or anything.
Personally, I would think long and hard about whether I wanted to share it at that stage. If it was something I might need adjustments for if I got the job, then I might mention it — partly to see the reaction, and to get a sense of whether they’re going to hold it against me or not.
But it’s a very personal decision, and I can completely understand why people might not want to share that kind of information about themselves when they don’t know how an employer is going to respond.
[39:05] Darren Jamieson:
In terms of allowances that somebody who’s neurodiverse might need, you mentioned noise-cancelling headphones and sensitivity to smells as well.
From my own son at the moment, he is very sensitive to smells, which is ironic because his room stinks, but he is very sensitive to smells.
We go to the football at Liverpool, at Anfield, and whenever we leave, people start smoking outside because they’re not allowed to smoke in the ground. Although people still do it, and they announce that if you do it, you’ll get thrown out — but they don’t throw people out. That’s just a bugbear he’s got.
As soon as we walk out of the stadium, people start sparking up cigarettes. He’s covering his face as we’re walking back to the car because he doesn’t want to smell it.
He refuses to sit outside at any restaurant, pub, or bar for food because people will smoke. He will always sit inside, no matter how hot it is. He will never sit outside.
There’s no way he could work here, for example, because one of our staff smokes. They go outside for a cigarette, come back in, and you can smell it as they walk in. He would not be able to put up with that.
So what are the other kinds of allowances you have seen in the workplace that employers have made for neurodiverse people?
[40:26] Aileen Carson:
Going along the lines of smell, one of the things somebody could request, or an employer might think about, is that if somebody is very sensitive to smell and their desk is right outside the kitchen in an office, or the staff room where people are eating food, it might be that they don’t sit there. They could have a desk that’s much further away.
A lot of the things I’ve seen, or that I would suggest, are actually really simple.
Whenever the words “reasonable adjustments” are mentioned, people sometimes think, “It’s going to be expensive. We haven’t got the budget for it. It’s going to be a real hassle to put in place.”
Very often it’s not. Certainly in my experience, the smallest things can make the biggest difference.
So things like noise-cancelling headphones. If someone is sensitive to noise, perhaps they can sit in an area of the office that is quieter. Perhaps they can have some flexibility in their working, such as being able to work from home a couple of days a week, or entirely.
It will depend on the job role and the employer. What’s reasonable for one organisation may not be reasonable for another. Larger organisations will have more resources, so what’s reasonable for a very large organisation may not be reasonable for a much smaller one.
There are all sorts of quite small things people can do.
Another is not just flexibility regarding where somebody works, but flexibility around how they schedule their work.
We all have times of day when we work better than other times. Some people work much better in the mornings and feel tired in the afternoons or evenings. For some people, it’s the other way around.
If you have some flexibility over how you arrange your work, and you’re able to concentrate much better in the mornings, you might want to schedule tasks that require more thinking or more energy in the mornings, and perhaps lighter tasks in the afternoons, or at a time of day when you find it slightly harder to concentrate.
So giving people a bit of flexibility, if possible — although I know that won’t work for all jobs.
There is also a lot of assistive technology out there. There are things that didn’t exist years and years ago. There’s software that can help dyslexic people, for example. There are lots and lots of things that can be really helpful.
Sometimes you might have to be a wee bit creative. People don’t always know what’s helpful for them or for their team members.
Some of the work I do is around coaching. I coach people who are perhaps having difficulties in the workplace, helping them find strategies that can help them with the areas they’re finding difficult, and also helping them become more aware of their strengths.
Very often people themselves are focused on what they’re finding difficult. Sometimes when I ask people about their strengths, I just get a blank look. It’s like, “Well, I don’t have any strengths.”
Yes, you do. Everybody has strengths.
So it’s about helping people recognise what their strengths are, and whether they can make more use of them in the workplace or in their job.
There are lots of things people can do, and very often they’re really quite small and don’t cost anything. You might just need to think about it a little bit, but there are lots of things people can do.
[43:47] Darren Jamieson:
No, I can get that. I can’t be creative on a Monday morning. It’s just not a creative time.
I genuinely cannot do any sort of writing, or putting together slides, or a presentation, or tasks on a Monday. It’s just not going to happen. Not going to happen at all.
That’s more a Friday afternoon task, which is probably why — I don’t know if they still do it — but Google, massive company obviously, used to have this thing where their staff are allowed to work on a personal passion project on a Friday afternoon.
[44:18] Aileen Carson:
Oh yeah. Mhm.
[44:20] Darren Jamieson:
Which is owned by Google, so you don’t own it. But you can work on something to research and develop your own project, and a lot of their products have come from that, because that’s a time when people are going to be creative on a Friday afternoon.
[44:33] Aileen Carson:
Yes. No, it’s a great idea. I have heard of that, actually.
I really like the idea of just being able to work on your own projects and use your own creativity, and see what you come up with.
[44:47] Darren Jamieson:
Let’s talk about your training.
In terms of your business, how are you currently getting clients coming to you, and what sort of people do you work with?
[44:55] Aileen Carson:
Almost all of my work is around neurodiversity.
My background — well, I’ve had quite a varied background. I’m somebody who has never stayed in any one job for a huge length of time, which is quite common in a lot of people with ADHD.
[45:10] Darren Jamieson:
That’s not a good thing to announce on a CV, is it?
[45:14] Aileen Carson:
It’s funny, because for some people that can be a big black mark against your name, but for others, they recognise that when you move around, you actually pick up lots of skills and knowledge from lots of different employers.
My more recent background was in the housing sector, so I’m actually working with quite a number of housing associations, running neurodiversity training sessions for them.
I also work with small business owners themselves and do some coaching with them to help them make the most of their strengths, and to run their business in a way that is sustainable for them.
Burnout is something that is quite common in neurodivergent people. Obviously, it can affect anybody, but I think because a lot of neurodivergent people are masking a lot of the time, that can really take its toll. It can be exhausting.
So helping people to run their business, or do their job, in a way that’s sustainable for them is something that I look at within my coaching.
I also work with charities and other smaller organisations as well — again, a mixture of training and coaching.
Some of my coaching clients come to me through organisations that I’ve worked with. I might go in and deliver a training session, and then they might contact me months later to say, “We’ve got one or two employees who could benefit from some coaching. Can you work with them?”
I’m also an associate coach with an organisation called Genius Within. They do a huge amount of work around neurodiversity, so some of my coaching work comes from them as well.
That’s been great because I get to work with people from all different sectors, different companies, completely different jobs — some very senior people, chief execs, and other people who are perhaps at the very start of their career and just getting their foot in the door.
So it’s really varied, which I love. I like working with lots of different people.
The work comes from a variety of places. Sometimes people just find me on LinkedIn, or they might stumble across my website and get in touch with me then.
I tend to find that people who have found me on LinkedIn — and I think a lot of people say this — tend to follow me for quite a long time before they get in touch. They need to feel as though they know me a bit more.
Usually, if people have contacted me through LinkedIn, they have been following me for about a year, if not more, just watching what I’ve been doing and the kinds of things I talk about. Then they might get in touch.
It’s very rare for someone to contact me having just found me on LinkedIn or on my website.
I’m also on Instagram. I don’t do as much with Instagram, but sometimes people find me there as well.
I think having an online presence helps. To begin with, when I first started out, it felt very uncomfortable. But when I realised that visibility can really help to bring in work and clients, then I realised it’s really important.
It’s partly about being visible, but also about being consistent in that visibility as well. So putting yourself out there, going on podcasts like this, talking at events.
I do quite a lot of networking as well. While most of the networking events I go to are for other small business owners, so they’re unlikely to hire me themselves, they may well know somebody who does. So I have work coming in roundabout ways through people I’ve connected with at networking events.
So work comes from a variety of different places, which is really nice, actually. I like the fact that it comes from different places.
It’s nice when people come back to me. The example I gave about organisations that have hired me to do a training course, and then they have come back to me to ask if I can coach some of their employees — it’s really nice to hear from them again and to maintain that relationship.
So that’s been great, when people come back to me more than once. Hopefully that means I’m doing a good job.
[48:59] Darren Jamieson:
It certainly does.
You’ve just said some magic words there as well. When you were talking about being seen online, you were talking about consistency, which is a massively important word.
There are a lot of people, as you say, who think it feels weird posting stuff on LinkedIn. “I don’t know what to write about. I don’t know what to say.”
But if you are consistent with it, and you are saying the same message and talking about the same subjects, as presumably you are with neurodiversity, people will follow you and see that’s what you talk about. They’ll think, “Ah, you are the expert in that.”
So when they need somebody to help them with that, they know to come to you because they feel like they already know you. They’ve seen everything you write about.
And when you talked about networking groups as well, you’ve cracked it straight away. There are loads of people who go to networking groups and don’t understand.
You mentioned there are lots of small businesses in the room. People will go there and say, “Well, these aren’t my target clients. There’s no point me going to these. They’re not going to be able to hire me.”
It’s not about that. It’s not about going there and selling to the room. It’s about who they know.
The accountant there might have 200 or 300 clients. How many of those might be housing associations that could use you? Actually, four or five of them might be.
That’s the point of going to those things. I think you’ve cracked that. A lot of people don’t understand that. They go all the time and they just don’t get it.
[50:18] Aileen Carson:
Yes, it’s taken me a while.
I must admit, I felt very uncomfortable about all of it. I’m not somebody who naturally puts themselves out there. But when you’re running your own business, you have to.
If I just sit in my spare room every day and potter away in front of my laptop, nobody’s going to know I exist.
So it was a case of, if I want to do this and I want to do it well, I have to put myself out there.
I was talking to somebody this morning, actually, who’s recently set up her own business, and I was sharing a few stories.
You don’t have to throw yourself into it straight away. If it’s something that makes you feel quite anxious or uncomfortable, with something like LinkedIn, you can just start by liking a few posts, connecting with a few people, and liking their posts. Then you can build up to commenting on people’s posts, and then eventually posting yourself.
But yes, I think that whole consistency is about getting yourself out there consistently, but also what you were saying there about having a consistent message.
I didn’t fully understand that when I first started. I didn’t really know who my ideal client was and I was trying to appeal to too many people. Then you realise quite quickly that just doesn’t work.
It doesn’t mean you can’t work with other people, but in terms of your marketing and getting your message out there, consistency in your messaging is really important as well.
[51:08] Aileen Carson:
What you were saying there about having a consistent message — I think I didn’t fully understand that when I first started.
I didn’t really know who my ideal client was, and I was trying to appeal to too many people. Then you realise quite quickly that that just doesn’t work.
It doesn’t mean you can’t work with other people, but in terms of your marketing or getting your message out there, consistency in your messaging is really important as well.
I think with networking as well, what that’s given me is being part of a community.
I think when you reframe how you see networking — because when people go into networking events and they think, “I’m just going in there to see what work I can get,” lots of people do that and they walk away disappointed.
But what I’ve found is that, by not thinking about it like that, and thinking about what I can offer other people as well, it changes things.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that very often I walk into a room and, within minutes, I’m talking to somebody else with ADHD. We just seem to gravitate towards each other like a magnet.
Or if I introduce myself and say what I do, people come and tell me their stories. People want to talk. They want to share their stories.
So it’s about being part of a community. I’ve made some really good friends at networking events — people I’ve got to know. We’re unlikely to use each other’s services, but that doesn’t matter.
You’ve got people around you, because running your own business is hard. It can be really hard. It can be isolating. But when you have other people around you who understand what it’s like, that can be really helpful as well.
I think there are so many advantages to networking, no matter how uncomfortable you might feel in the very beginning when you walk into a room full of people you don’t know.
One of the nice things is that I live in Edinburgh, which is quite a small city. So when I go into networking events, I always meet new people, but I always recognise one or two people as well.
There are always a few familiar faces in there, and that’s really nice — that I’ve been able to build up those relationships with people.
Because that’s also what business is about: building relationships with people, and for them to get to know you and trust you, and think, “I might recommend you to somebody.”
So yes, I think there are no downsides to it.
[53:06] Darren Jamieson:
Business is about relationships because people buy from people.
[53:10] Aileen Carson:
Yes. Exactly.
[53:12] Darren Jamieson:
And as you beautifully touched on there as well, a lot of people will go to networking events because they want to grow their business. They want to get sales. They want to get new clients.
But they’ll go back and they’ll stay because of the relationships. They’ll go and stay because of the advice.
Where else can you go to a group of people and speak to a solicitor that you know well, and say, “I’ve just had this problem. Could you give me some advice on that?” And you’ll get free advice from them.
You can speak to an accountant. You can speak to a mortgage broker and ask for advice: “My mortgage is due for renewal. What do you think the best options are for me?”
And it doesn’t cost you anything because you’re getting this support. Whereas, as a business owner on your own, you’re isolated. You don’t get this normally.
So yes, they’re great for that.
[53:59] Aileen Carson:
Yes, definitely.
I love the fact that I’ve met so many people I would never have met otherwise. If I hadn’t gone to these networking events, I wouldn’t have met people who are doing all sorts of different things.
It really opens your eyes to the number of businesses that are out there that you’d never even heard of.
Meeting people who are doing things completely different to what I’m doing, but who might still share some of the same struggles, is really nice.
It’s also nice being able to celebrate some of your achievements as well. If things are going well, it’s lovely to be able to speak to other people who understand that high when perhaps you’ve got a new client, or something has gone really well.
It’s not just for when times are hard. It’s great meeting lots of new people who you probably wouldn’t come into contact with anywhere else.
[54:44] Darren Jamieson:
Speaking of meeting new people, we are pretty much out of time now.
Anyone listening to this who is thinking, “I would love to speak to you and find out more about what you do. Maybe get you to come in and train some of my staff, put some talks on, or maybe speak at one of my events,” what’s the best way for someone to get in touch with you?
[55:04] Aileen Carson:
Either through my website, which is aileencarson.com, or I’m on LinkedIn and Instagram.
My email address is [aileen@aileencarson.com](mailto:aileen@aileencarson.com).
Those are probably the best ways to get in touch with me.
[55:17] Darren Jamieson:
Aileen, thank you very much for being a guest on the podcast.
[55:21] Aileen Carson:
Thank you very much for having me.
