[00:55] Darren Jamieson:
On this week’s episode of The Engaging Marketeer, I’m speaking with Gary Parsons, founder of The Selfish Thinking Company.
That speaks to me on a level other companies have never spoken to me before, because I am, by my own admission, very, very selfish.
Gary is heavily involved in well-being and wellness within businesses, looking at how businesses can do better for their employees and help them become better versions of themselves.
He is also a member of the Professional Speaking Association, so I’m going to be talking to Gary about professional speaking, appearing on stages and how he gets paid the big bucks for doing the big talks.
[01:35] Darren Jamieson:
I’m interested in what you brand as The Selfish Thinking Company, for leaders who need to be a bit more selfish.
That appeals to me personally because I consider myself—and I’ve been told—that I’m quite selfish and have zero empathy.
What exactly is a selfish leader, and why is it a good thing?
[01:54] Gary Parsons:
Let’s begin with what people think a selfish leader is, because so many people hear “selfish” as a bad word.
When we describe somebody as selfish, there’s guilt attached to it. It feels like we’re saying that person doesn’t care about anybody else, is self-absorbed or egotistical, and thinks everything is about them.
The way I look at the word “selfish” is about taking that guilt away.
[02:22] Gary Parsons:
Especially in 2026, when we’re more open about well-being and more conscious of looking after ourselves, I want to bring that word to the forefront of our minds.
For me, being selfish means prioritising yourself, your mental health and your well-being.
[02:45] Gary Parsons:
Whether you’re leading within a business, founding and growing a company, parenting or supporting a family, thinking selfishly and looking after yourself gives you the ability to show up for other people.
It gives you the energy to cope on the days when you might otherwise fail very quickly.
[03:22] Gary Parsons:
It’s about building your capacity so you can be there for others, be the person you want to be and support people sustainably.
“Sustainable” is the most important word.
[03:31] Darren Jamieson:
When most people start a business, they do it for various reasons.
They may not want to be employed or have anybody telling them what to do—only to end up with clients telling them what to do instead. They may want to be masters of their own destiny, or they may have been made redundant and don’t want to experience that again.
You set up a business and make a lot of sacrifices. You sacrifice time with your family, work late, start early and work weekends.
Sometimes you don’t even pay yourself because your staff and suppliers have to be paid first.
[04:14] Darren Jamieson:
Are these the situations you’re talking about? Do people need to stop doing that and make themselves the priority?
[04:24] Gary Parsons:
One hundred per cent.
I talk about both leaders and founders because one owns the business and often has much more control, while the other might be a middle manager, senior leader or board member. They’re operating in different environments.
The first major challenge for most people is boundaries.
[04:56] Gary Parsons:
When we start a business, we blur those boundaries because we’re wearing every hat: marketing, finance, sales and everything else.
You want the business to succeed, so nine to five doesn’t exist for you. Those boundaries disappear very quickly.
It happens to employed leaders as well. They feel they need to demonstrate commitment and performance by working additional hours.
[05:37] Gary Parsons:
We’ve all heard the phrase “work smarter, not harder”.
It’s great that you’re showing commitment, but you need to find a smarter way of working instead of simply working harder.
Boundaries are the first major area where people make mistakes.
[05:57] Darren Jamieson:
I don’t think social media and business gurus help.
You see people with TikTok, Instagram and LinkedIn channels saying that if you’re not awake at five in the morning, filling in your gratitude journal, going for a walk and doing three hours of reading before nine o’clock, you’re not working hard enough.
According to them, by nine o’clock you should already have completed seven hours of work, and then you carry on until eight at night or whatever it might be.
They’re teaching people that they must work harder and harder, for longer and longer, to get results.
What are your thoughts on how that influences people going into business?
[06:40] Gary Parsons:
Interestingly, I was going to start a marketing campaign last year called “F the hustle”—or using the full word.
That’s really what we’re talking about: hustle culture.
You’re out of bed at five, you’ve had your protein shake and gone to the gym.
Those individual things can be great. Going to the gym can help you switch off, instead of waking up and immediately going onto your phone or heading straight into the office.
[07:17] Gary Parsons:
But the exaggerated idea that you must do everything before nine o’clock creates a toxic culture.
It leads people to question somebody’s commitment to their business or employer. If you aren’t doing all those things, how committed can you really be?
It might sound great initially. Personally, I’d probably die on the first day if I attempted anything like that.
It’s hard to sustain for a week, let alone several months.
[07:55] Gary Parsons:
Now add other things into your life. Perhaps you’ve received a diagnosis, lost a loved one or are going through a particularly difficult period within your business.
How can you sustain all those routines while dealing with so much pressure elsewhere?
You can’t.
[08:20] Gary Parsons:
As a leader, you’re already being pulled in every direction. There is pressure to perform and a huge sense of responsibility.
Adding the expectation that you should also get up at five in the morning is too much.
Unsurprisingly, we’re seeing people burn out.
[08:50] Gary Parsons:
Coming back to the influencers who talk about this online, I was recently sent an article in The Times featuring the boss of a very high-profile UK company.
He said he didn’t believe in work-life balance.
That doesn’t sound right to me. Perhaps I’ve worked in this area for too long, but it sounds so wrong to say it aloud.
[09:22] Gary Parsons:
That’s somebody who goes on holiday but continues checking his mobile and working.
That isn’t a holiday. It’s simply working in a different location.
How many of these people talk about the negative side?
[09:42] Gary Parsons:
When I started this journey, I wanted not only to tell my story but also to encourage other people to talk about difficult periods in their lives.
I’ve interviewed a very successful multimillionaire who sold his business and, on that same day, attempted to take his own life.
A brief trigger warning around mental health here: fortunately, he is still with us, but we nearly lost him.
[10:13] Gary Parsons:
There are people who aren’t telling those stories, but we need to hear them because many others are struggling.
Not from a doom-and-gloom perspective, but because we need some reality.
[10:30] Darren Jamieson:
That attitude of working harder and harder may be generational.
My dad used to say that if you wanted something, you worked harder for it. You did overtime, worked six or seven days a week, saved up and bought what you wanted.
That isn’t necessarily how the world works anymore.
Then you have people such as Alan Sugar. You didn’t want to name the boss of the company, but I’ll name Alan Sugar.
He has repeatedly said that working from home is a scam, that people working from home are dossing, sitting around watching television and doing nothing. He says everybody needs to return to the office because that’s the only way they’ll be productive.
[11:16] Darren Jamieson:
By pure coincidence, Alan Sugar owns a lot of office space. I’m sure he isn’t incentivised in any way to get people back into offices so that he can earn more money from them.
They don’t seem to understand work-life balance or accept that people can be just as productive from home. COVID proved that we could do it.
What is your view of that draconian attitude that everybody should be in an office from nine to five or nine to six, toiling away and doing only what their boss tells them?
[11:48] Gary Parsons:
Our economy is built around many people owning a great deal of property.
I’m sure Lord Sugar, like many successful entrepreneurs, owns retail or commercial property that he rents out.
I have friends who own residential and commercial properties too.
If businesses have modelled their revenue and growth around buying more property, where do they end up if everybody works from home?
Where do the sandwich shops end up?
[12:36] Gary Parsons:
We saw a major change in the dynamics of high streets following COVID.
More recently, with everything happening around Iran and the effect on electricity, oil and gas prices, some governments have been asking how they can respond.
In certain countries, public-sector employees have been told to work from home.
They may not fully believe in it, but they’re returning to that default.
[13:22] Gary Parsons:
I’m slightly indifferent because working from home places some of the burden on the individual, who then faces higher domestic energy costs when people are already being squeezed by the cost of living, food and heating.
Do I believe it’s important to have the ability to work from home? Yes, absolutely.
But I also believe we need somewhere we can go.
[13:54] Gary Parsons:
You may or may not be a big soap-opera fan, but in Coronation Street and EastEnders, everybody has the Rovers Return or the Queen Vic. There’s always somewhere the community gathers.
That’s important within organisations.
Before launching this business, I worked in HR and people consultancy. One question I repeatedly heard was: “How do we maintain engagement?”
[14:27] Gary Parsons:
I kept coming back to the same point. It’s great that you’re embracing working from home, but you still need somewhere people can come together and connect in person.
That could be an annual conference, a quarterly meeting or another organised gathering.
Physical connection between employees makes a massive difference.
[14:51] Gary Parsons:
It comes down to balance and giving people the option and permission to create that balance in their own lives.
You need to empower them.
[15:11] Darren Jamieson:
I understand the importance of a meeting place.
I’ve also heard it said that if people went to the pub as often as characters do in Coronation Street, they would all be alcoholics. People working in the knicker factory seem to be in the pub every day.
At our company, the policy is that you’re in the office two days a week. One of those days is always Tuesday, and you can choose the other.
People work from home for the remaining three days.
[15:42] Darren Jamieson:
Some people are in the office five days a week because they don’t want to work from home. Some come in three days because that suits them better.
Two days is simply the minimum.
I never work from home because I personally dislike it. I don’t like the isolation. As you said, I need to feed off other people, which technically makes me an extrovert, although I don’t feel that way.
[16:11] Darren Jamieson:
I understand why people need somewhere to go, because being constantly isolated can negatively affect mental health.
At the same time, if you’re able to work from home, you shouldn’t be ordered into an office five days a week simply because somebody wants to sell office space or believes everybody should work in cubicles.
Can you see a future in which everybody understands this and hybrid working is accepted across all sectors?
[16:48] Gary Parsons:
That’s a very good question. Do we even have a future?
We won’t go that dark so quickly!
Yes, it will change. It’s simply a question of how long it takes.
I’ve talked about balance, but choice is also a major part of it. You choose to go into the office, while other people choose not to.
[17:12] Gary Parsons:
When we look at equality and equity within workplaces, some people genuinely need the choice and ability to work from home more frequently. They cannot simply be forced into an office.
We need to adapt so those people remain included.
[17:43] Gary Parsons:
Presenteeism is still a major failure within many businesses.
There are incredibly talented and capable people in organisations, but some systems and leaders still link promotion and progression to being physically present.
Those businesses will miss out on exceptional talent.
There is a significant mindset challenge to overcome.
[18:24] Gary Parsons:
Yes, this change will happen, whether businesses like it or not, particularly as generations change.
Whether it happens within the next generation, I don’t know.
At times, I feel as though we’ve moved ten steps forwards and fifteen steps backwards.
[18:42] Darren Jamieson:
Really? You think it’s that bad?
[18:44] Gary Parsons:
In many ways, yes, although it depends on who you speak to and what you read.
Many businesses are still consciously pursuing DEI-focused initiatives because they recognise the value of cognitive variation across their organisations.
[19:07] Gary Parsons:
The businesses that continue embracing and talking about it will see the greatest difference and gain a competitive advantage.
At least, that’s what I believe.
[19:28] Darren Jamieson:
Other companies are going in the opposite direction by trialling four-day working weeks.
That’s becoming a significant movement in the UK. I don’t know how widespread it is in the United States or globally, but many UK digital-marketing companies are proudly talking about adopting four-day weeks.
[19:54] Darren Jamieson:
They aren’t simply extending the hours on the other days. Employees are working four days and receiving approximately 50 additional days off each year.
If that becomes normal, companies insisting on five days, nine to five—or even eight until six—with everybody in the office are going to struggle to recruit people of the right quality.
Employees will choose companies that support their well-being, mental health and creativity.
[20:35] Gary Parsons:
It’s important to recognise that.
When I stepped away from my previous business, which had grown to include a co-director, operations director and several teams, I began working primarily for myself.
I have an amazing PA and a friend who helps with marketing and other things, but I’m effectively the only full-time employee.
[21:04] Gary Parsons:
One thing I consciously decided was that I would work only four days a week.
Wednesdays are my well-being days. I dedicate that day to my well-being.
There isn’t a rigid structure, but one thing I try to do every Wednesday is spend time with a horse that I loan.
[21:25] Darren Jamieson:
You loan a horse?
[21:28] Gary Parsons:
Yes. He’s effectively mine on Wednesdays, to put it in simple terms.
[21:34] Darren Jamieson:
That’s the first time I’ve heard anybody say that.
[21:44] Darren Jamieson:
Is it like a timeshare for a horse?
[21:50] Gary Parsons:
That’s probably a good way of describing it.
I contribute towards his costs. He lives at the stables and is used for lessons, but he’s mine on Wednesdays.
[22:06] Gary Parsons:
During the brighter months—not necessarily the warmer months, but when we have more daylight—I can get on him and head out.
He’s incredibly laid-back and has a wonderful character.
We go out alone or in groups into the woods near the stables.
[22:31] Gary Parsons:
You have that connection with both the horse and nature.
For anybody wondering what they could do on a “Well-being Wednesday”, go horse riding or find something else you enjoy.
One thing you cannot do while riding is allow your mind to wander through everything you need to do at work tomorrow, because you need to stay on the horse.
You must remain alert and pay attention to what’s happening.
[22:59] Gary Parsons:
With Merlin, he probably wouldn’t notice. There are days when both of us daydream, and he trips over his own shadow.
But being outside and on a horse, where you must focus completely on what you’re doing, is absolute escapism.
It’s a form of meditation. You escape from the world and spend time in nature.
[23:26] Gary Parsons:
I’m completely in favour of four-day working.
More of us should switch off properly.
That CEO I mentioned says he doesn’t switch off and doesn’t believe in work-life balance. I would encourage him to try it.
Take a Well-being Wednesday, get on a horse and disappear for a couple of hours. I think it would make a huge difference.
[24:03] Gary Parsons:
I’m not a qualified neuroscientist, but a great deal of research shows the benefits of switching off fully.
When we return to our desks, offices, projects and tasks, we aren’t overwhelmed by the volume of decisions we’ve made over the previous few days.
We see significant improvements in the quality of our decisions.
It’s proven, so why not use the science and say: “I need Wednesday off”?
[24:38] [Laughter]
[24:45] Darren Jamieson:
I love that.
I’ve never been horse riding, although I’ve always liked the idea.
I think I may be a little too heavy at the moment. I looked into it at Center Parcs, but I’m over their weight limit, so I can’t do it there.
[25:00] Darren Jamieson:
When we spoke earlier in the year, we realised my old school wasn’t far from where you were.
[25:07] Gary Parsons:
I can point you towards a riding school around that area. It isn’t far at all.
[25:12] Darren Jamieson:
Yes, the local riding club. One of my family friends goes there.
[25:19] Gary Parsons:
Perhaps when I’m over visiting family, I’ll drag you out and we’ll find a horse for you.
[25:24] Darren Jamieson:
Definitely. Consider it on.
I also love the idea of taking one day a week for well-being.
There are so many people who brag about the hours they work as though it’s a good thing.
“I work all these hours, therefore I’m hustling and doing well.”
That always amazes me, because it isn’t a good way to live.
[25:48] Darren Jamieson:
If you must work all those hours and stay on your phone constantly while you’re on holiday, you haven’t built a business.
It’s the same when employees say: “I need to stay behind to catch up.”
Who is doing the better job: the employee who leaves at five after completing every task and hitting every target, or the employee who remains for another two hours?
I’ll let you decide which person is performing better.
[26:24] [Laughter]
[26:32] Darren Jamieson:
When we started Engage Web 17 years ago, I did an enormous amount of work because starting a business is difficult.
I began at seven or eight in the morning, worked until eight at night and worked Sundays.
But as you grow and scale—and “scale” is the important word—you bring in the right people for the right jobs.
[26:47] Darren Jamieson:
You don’t bring people in and then continue doing exactly what they do.
You hire people who are better than you, faster than you or more cost-effective at particular tasks.
There’s no point employing people while you all continue doing the same thing, because everybody is busy but nobody is growing.
[27:11] Darren Jamieson:
We scaled the company.
I had a one-to-one meeting before this podcast, and when people ask what I do, I tell them: “Nothing.”
They think I’m joking, but I do absolutely nothing. Diddly-squat.
In the past three years, we’ve built approximately 125 or 130 websites. I haven’t built any of them, and I don’t even know that half of them exist.
[27:37] Darren Jamieson:
That’s how it should be.
Scaling is about putting the right people into the right positions so you can concentrate on what you want to do, what you’re good at and what will help you and the company grow.
[27:54] Gary Parsons:
That brings the words “empowerment” and “engagement” to mind.
How much more engaged and empowered are those people when you aren’t constantly saying: “I’ll do that”?
They finally have the opportunity to do it themselves.
[28:17] Gary Parsons:
In one of my workshops—and I also discuss this onstage—I explain that there are people in your business who are better than you at certain things.
I use a very simple decision matrix with two questions:
Should this task be on their job description?
Can they do it?
[28:42] Gary Parsons:
If they can do it and it should be part of their job, why aren’t they doing it? Why are you still doing it?
Perhaps it should be part of their role and they can almost do it.
That’s where your responsibility as a leader begins.
[28:57] Gary Parsons:
Whether you own the company, lead a team or sit on the board, your job is to make sure people are capable of doing that work.
That doesn’t necessarily mean managing them closely. It can mean giving direction, coaching them, asking questions they haven’t considered and challenging their thinking.
[29:31] Gary Parsons:
Your role is to steer the business and mentor or coach people until they can independently complete the tasks that belong in their job descriptions.
It’s a surefire route towards success.
[29:48] Darren Jamieson:
You’ve just used the golden word: engagement.
Our company is Engage Web and this is The Engaging Marketeer. Engagement is what it’s all about.
Empowerment is also critical.
You must empower people to make decisions and take ownership.
[30:03] Darren Jamieson:
If employees think you’re going to micromanage them and tell them everything they’ve done wrong, they won’t make decisions. They’ll simply wait for you to do everything.
Let them make decisions. Let them take ownership.
I’m always wary of micromanagers who say: “I can’t let my staff do that. I must be there. I must make that decision.”
[30:20] Darren Jamieson:
I own some rental properties and, many years ago, used a letting agent to manage them.
He had two or three employees, but he refused to let any of them make payments to landlords.
He personally handled every payment.
If he wasn’t there, the payments weren’t made, which meant I frequently wasn’t paid.
[30:37] Darren Jamieson:
I would phone the office and one of the employees would say: “He isn’t here today, so we can’t make the payment.”
He wouldn’t empower or trust anybody else.
That isn’t how you grow a business—or retain customers. It certainly didn’t retain me, because I left.
It infuriates me when people run businesses like that and refuse to let employees do the things they’re good at.
[31:18] Gary Parsons:
A good friend of mine, Serena, talks about leaders who abdicate responsibility.
That isn’t what we’re asking leaders to do.
The leader should still retain accountability, but another person can take responsibility for performing the task.
[31:43] Gary Parsons:
Particularly with finance, there are now many systems that allow you to set limits.
You can enable an employee to complete almost the entire process while retaining control over one final part.
It fascinates me when leaders and business owners take on so many duties because they’re frightened of giving anything away.
[32:07] Gary Parsons:
I recently worked with a business owner who said: “Perhaps I need to stop ordering all the stock for my shops and let somebody else do it.”
The challenge was that she had spent about £3,500 more than usual against a typical stock budget of around £10,000.
That was a useful learning opportunity.
Why had she spent more that month, and could that decision be built into a simple policy?
[32:39] Gary Parsons:
I’m not talking about a 20-page policy. It could contain 20 words.
It might simply say: “If the amount exceeds this figure, obtain my authorisation. Otherwise, place the order.”
If you’re ordering the same products every month because they’ve sold out, place the order.
If you’re spending an extra £3,500, I probably want to understand why and have some oversight.
That’s a perfectly acceptable first stage. You can loosen the controls further in the future.
[33:18] Gary Parsons:
Founders hold onto their businesses like babies. There’s a strong emotional attachment, and we don’t want to let go.
I’ve been there.
For some context, in 2017 my business had turnover of approximately £1.2 million.
We were growing by roughly 235 to 240% year on year.
[33:51] Gary Parsons:
Anybody you speak to would say that growing 20 or 30% year on year can be dangerous.
We were growing at an absolutely extraordinary rate.
I reached the point where I struggled to get out of bed or even walk around a supermarket. My energy was completely depleted.
Although I had a co-director, I felt responsible for everything.
[34:29] Gary Parsons:
It became a major wake-up call.
I sat down with my doctor and said: “I don’t feel well.”
Following a diagnosis and further conversations, I realised I needed to stop doing what I was doing and give responsibility to the incredibly capable team around me.
[35:02] Gary Parsons:
The difference was enormous.
Our turnover fell from approximately £1.2 million to £800,000, but we made more profit because the team was working in a better and smarter way.
It demonstrates that you cannot do everything yourself. Eventually, you will burn out.
[35:23] Darren Jamieson:
It’s strange when business owners, managers and even employees try to retain control of numerous tasks.
They may be worried somebody will replace them, take their job or reduce their value to the business.
Some people take pride in the fact that everything falls apart when they go away.
They return from a week off and say: “Look at what happened while I was gone. You clearly need me.”
They treat that as a good thing.
[36:00] Darren Jamieson:
It isn’t a good thing.
If you’re a manager or business owner and everything goes wrong while you’re away, that’s your fault.
You haven’t made sure the people in the business can manage without you.
[36:16] Darren Jamieson:
We’ve created a skills matrix within our company.
Every task associated with each role is listed, and employees are cross-trained in different skills.
We make sure there isn’t only one person capable of doing something.
If somebody is going to be away, another employee is trained to cover the task.
I mentioned this on another podcast, and the guest thought it was revolutionary. They had never encountered it before.
I assume you’ve seen this yourself.
[36:53] Gary Parsons:
Absolutely.
I had an employee called Matt. He won’t mind me mentioning him.
He was effectively our office manager and did everything. He was the glue holding the company together.
[37:10] Gary Parsons:
He joined as an apprentice and saw the business grow, along with all the issues we encountered.
I remember sitting down with him one day and listing several things that had gone wrong.
He said: “I normally do that, but I was away that day, so it wasn’t fixed.”
[37:27] Gary Parsons:
Several employees had been making small mistakes, and Matt had been silently fixing them.
They didn’t know they had made mistakes, and we didn’t know he had corrected them.
Many “stealth employees” do that with the best intentions. They quietly bring everything together and make other people look good.
[38:00] Gary Parsons:
It isn’t a bad thing for an employee to say: “I’m struggling with this.”
Historically, if somebody was told they weren’t good at sending confirmation emails to clients, they might assume they were going to be disciplined or dismissed.
I see it as an opportunity.
We’ve found an area where improvement is needed, so what systems or training can we introduce?
These days, AI might even be part of the answer.
[38:54] Gary Parsons:
Our former business was a people consultancy, and part of it included a pay and reward team.
They processed payroll for approximately 100 companies. The largest had around 1,200 employees.
Another client had only 20 employees but a higher total payroll value because of the salaries involved.
The processes had to be incredibly reliable.
[39:32] Gary Parsons:
The example involving Matt wasn’t payroll-related, but if it had been, one uncorrected mistake could have caused an employee to be massively overpaid or created a serious issue for the employer.
It might have cost the client—and potentially us—thousands of pounds.
That’s why these systems are so important.
[40:11] Darren Jamieson:
Employees make mistakes. I’ve made mistakes.
Your first instinct can be to cover your tracks.
You think: “I can’t let anybody find out. I could be fired, disciplined or get into trouble.”
So you hide it.
When the mistake is eventually discovered, it’s much bigger than it would have been if you’d admitted it immediately.
[40:40] Darren Jamieson:
Everybody makes mistakes. What differentiates you is how you deal with them.
You’ll make mistakes with clients, employees and business owners.
The same is true of customer service.
If a company makes a billing error or your broadband is disconnected for three hours, what matters is how it responds.
If it denies responsibility, that’s poor service.
If it says, “Yes, we did that. Here’s a £30 credit,” that makes a difference.
Many people don’t understand that.
[41:16] Gary Parsons:
A friend sent me a podcast episode a few months ago, although I can’t remember its name.
It made the point that showing up is good, but trying—making an effort and going out of your way to demonstrate that you care—is worth much more to people.
[41:42] Gary Parsons:
I think the speaker was a leading psychologist.
He said that walking through the door every day is valuable, but hearing about everything somebody did to try to reach the door, even when they didn’t make it, can be worth much more.
Our behaviours, values and the way our actions align with those values make an enormous difference.
[42:08] Gary Parsons:
I’ve already made a mistake today, and that’s fine.
The number of mistakes I’ve made in business is incredibly useful now that I’m a mentor, because I can help other people avoid them.
Some mistakes have cost me a great deal of money.
Other mistakes have made me money.
[42:34] Gary Parsons:
I’ve contacted the wrong person, had an unexpectedly good conversation, and heard them say: “This sounds like something that could work for us. Can you come in and talk?”
Mistakes have good and bad sides.
Own them.
We are human.
[43:04] Gary Parsons:
I often say this—not to invalidate what anybody is experiencing—but we’re ordinary people going through ordinary things.
While trying to be the best of the best, it’s okay to admit that you’re struggling, have made a mistake or perhaps shouldn’t have walked through the door that day.
It’s okay to say you’re struggling as a leader.
[43:30] Gary Parsons:
If you model the behaviour that you’re invincible, like a computer, and that nothing ever goes wrong with you, how can an employee approach you and say: “I’ve made a mistake,” or, “Something is going wrong and I need support”?
Ironically, things go wrong with computers too.
[43:54] Gary Parsons:
There’s a phrase I share with everybody, and I hope it makes a difference:
There is always a reason and never an excuse.
I don’t want people to excuse my mistake. I made it, and I’ll own it and deal with it.
But I do want compassion.
[44:20] Gary Parsons:
I want you to understand why it happened and work with me.
If leaders can do that for employees, and employees can do it for leaders, imagine how productive, successful and supportive that business can become.
[44:53] Darren Jamieson:
I love that. It’s a great phrase.
The moral is to own your mistakes because everybody makes them. What matters is how you respond.
When I was an employee, I had a boss who made a lot of mistakes because he frequently jumped to conclusions.
On one occasion, he burst into the office and absolutely tore strips off somebody, shouting and screaming at them.
He was completely wrong. He had misunderstood the situation.
[45:24] Darren Jamieson:
He realised afterwards, but he took the employee outside and apologised privately after shouting at them in front of the entire office.
That wasn’t enough. A public apology was needed.
[45:42] Gary Parsons:
Exactly.
It’s interesting that some leaders still feel it’s acceptable to enter a workplace and argue with or humiliate somebody publicly, whether they’re right or wrong.
That behaviour is massively disengaging.
[46:16] Gary Parsons:
A lot of my work also comes from a personal experience.
I developed facial palsy when I was 18.
Only during the last five years have I started talking about it. I spent 20 years saying nothing and wearing a mask.
The message is about the damage caused by pretending to be somebody else.
[46:41] Gary Parsons:
Many leaders believe they need to wear a mask of strength.
They think: “If I don’t admit something has gone wrong or that I’ve made a mistake, I’m strong.”
That’s what they understand strength to mean.
[47:01] Gary Parsons:
The message I want to share is that many people in business are beginning to recognise that showing vulnerability and humanity is a strength.
By vulnerability, I don’t mean exposing yourself so people can take advantage of you. I mean demonstrating that you’re human, that you make mistakes and that people should show compassion towards one another.
That is an incredibly engaging leadership quality.
[47:35] Gary Parsons:
A leader might walk in and say: “Bear with me today. I’ve received some bad news,” or, “I had a major argument with my partner, so decisions may take me a little longer this week.”
Again, there is always a reason and never an excuse.
We want leaders to show their genuine, vulnerable side.
Then, when employees are struggling, those leaders are more likely to respond with compassion.
Those behaviours work both ways.
[48:14] Darren Jamieson:
A phrase has entered my head twice while you’ve been talking.
It’s a stupid phrase from a film, and I can’t remember which film.
Somebody explains almost exactly what you’ve described by saying: “Everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time.”
[48:30] Gary Parsons:
I love it. I’ll have to Google that.
[48:32] Darren Jamieson:
It isn’t from SpongeBob SquarePants or anything like that.
It was much older. Somebody responded to the line, but I can’t remember the film.
It might have been something strange such as A Nightmare on Elm Street 3.
Anyway, let’s move on from pants.
[48:46] Gary Parsons:
We’ll have to see whether somebody comments or emails you with the answer.
[49:02] Darren Jamieson:
You’ve mentioned public speaking.
You’re a speaker and a member of the PSA. What has that done for your business?
[49:15] Gary Parsons:
I’m also regional president this year.
It’s something to celebrate, although it happened in difficult circumstances.
I was only supposed to be vice-president, but our regional president became unwell and sadly passed away very quickly, within a matter of hours.
[49:38] Gary Parsons:
I’m trying to find a way to celebrate the role, but it’s difficult to balance those emotions.
After speaking to his wife, she explained how important the Professional Speaking Association had been to him.
It’s a huge honour to champion speakers and talk about the profession.
I’m regional president for the East Midlands.
[50:03] Gary Parsons:
At the time of recording, the PSA has 14 regions across the UK and Ireland.
It has been a major part of my life for the past two years and has been incredibly helpful.
I’ve learnt from many mistakes, including speaking competitions where I felt I failed miserably—even though I probably did reasonably well.
[50:37] Darren Jamieson:
You’re often your own worst critic.
[50:44] Gary Parsons:
Absolutely, especially when you actively ask for feedback.
We hold member showcases and ask for feedback from peers in the room.
At one showcase, I stood directly in front of the projector.
I’d been doing a great deal of training with a professional-speaking coach about how to move around a room.
I became so focused on using the space correctly that I forgot about the huge screen behind me and blocked everybody’s view.
Other than that, people loved the talk.
[51:22] Gary Parsons:
During my first year, I secured a major engagement with a large UK regulator.
Since then, I’ve worked with different clients and become involved in the speaking world in different ways.
I’ve also spoken with people in the United States and met the president of the Maldives Professional Speakers Association.
[51:47] Darren Jamieson:
Wow.
[51:50] Gary Parsons:
That’s always a useful connection if you want to visit the Maldives.
[51:54] Darren Jamieson:
On a tax-deductible trip, because it’s a business expense.
[51:58] Gary Parsons:
Absolutely.
I should also say that last year I initially declined the opportunity to become regional vice-president.
We all have self-limiting beliefs.
I had previously been a leader and wasn’t sure I wanted to take on that responsibility again.
[52:25] Gary Parsons:
After attending several events, including our national conference, I phoned Mal, who had originally asked me to be vice-president.
I said: “I’ve changed my mind. I completely understand if you no longer want me as your vice-president, but I would love to do it. I’d also like to become regional president and, within the next five to ten years, national president.”
He replied: “Okay, Gary. That’s quite a change of mind.”
[52:58] Gary Parsons:
My longer-term ambition is to become PSA-wide president across the UK and Ireland within the next five to ten years.
This role is a step in the right direction.
It has opened many doors, to use the cliché, but the relationships and support have been the most valuable part.
[53:28] Darren Jamieson:
You mentioned a major talk but didn’t identify the organisation.
Was that a paid or free talk, and did you win any business from it?
[53:35] Gary Parsons:
It was a very lucrative paid talk.
[53:38] Darren Jamieson:
I saw your eyes light up when you said “very lucrative”.
[53:44] Gary Parsons:
Absolutely.
I had only been a member of the Professional Speaking Association for around six months.
For context, I started my previous business in 2009 and was still a non-executive director at that point.
As a business leader, I had spoken at many Chamber of Commerce events and was comfortable standing up in front of people.
[54:11] Gary Parsons:
But becoming a professional speaker changes how you see it.
I’m now an even harsher critic of myself because I understand what I should be doing and recognise all the things I didn’t do ten or fifteen years ago.
The client was holding a leadership conference.
[54:29] Gary Parsons:
I spoke about my mental-health journey and the severe depression I experienced in 2017.
I contrasted that with the outward success of my business.
I wanted the audience to see both sides and understand why leaders need to prioritise their mental health and well-being.
[54:46] Gary Parsons:
It was amazing.
They fed me, and I had three different desserts.
I’m not necessarily a fussy eater, but I’m vegan. They said: “We didn’t know what you’d like, so we made you this, this and this.”
Two of them were chocolate, so I was happy.
One was an Oreo brownie-cheesecake-type thing.
[55:03] Gary Parsons:
They fed me, I delivered the talk, went home and sent my invoice.
It was a great conference.
As a professional speaker, the bracket I currently work within is approximately £3,000 to £10,000.
[55:25] Gary Parsons:
There are also events I do for free.
I’m an official campaigner for Changing Faces UK, a visible-difference charity supporting people with scars, burns, facial palsy and many other conditions.
I also work with Facial Palsy UK.
[55:40] Gary Parsons:
For those two charities, I speak publicly, run webinars and do a lot of camera work.
I have a campaign coming out this year for Face Equality Week. We completed the filming in London a few weeks ago.
There are other events where I might accept a token amount.
[56:04] Gary Parsons:
For anybody who wants to enter professional speaking, it’s okay to speak for free.
It’s okay to speak for £100. That is completely fine.
For a purely professional booking, I’m likely to decline unless the fee is between £3,000 and £10,000.
[56:19] Gary Parsons:
However, fill a room with 100 HR managers who are interested in buying well-being workshops or mentoring for their leaders, and I may not charge anything.
Perhaps I would ask for a small amount or expenses.
It’s about deciding what I want each opportunity to achieve.
[56:38] Darren Jamieson:
It sounds as though you’re in a really good position, which is appropriate given that your business is centred around well-being.
You seem to be living a good and happy life right now.
[56:49] Gary Parsons:
Yes, absolutely, and thank you.
I want to acknowledge and celebrate that, because I am in a good position.
I was going to say I’m in a privileged position, but I’ve also worked incredibly hard to get here.
That’s important because self-doubt and issues around self-worth can cause us to overlook the work we’ve done.
[57:03] Gary Parsons:
I’ve worked incredibly hard, from starting a business during a recession to where I am today.
But like anybody, I still experience moments of doubt.
I can come offstage and think: “What on earth was that, Gary? You did an awful job.”
Then people approach me and say it was great.
[57:22] Gary Parsons:
Other people may say: “That was really good. I would have loved it if you’d also done X, Y and Z.”
That feedback is absolutely fine—although perhaps not in that exact moment.
Give me a little while, or at least an hour.
[57:37] Darren Jamieson:
Let you cool down first. Let the adrenaline go before giving you feedback.
[57:43] Gary Parsons:
Absolutely.
Life has ups and downs. I have a sick relative; my grandad is unwell at the moment.
Things happen in our lives, and it’s fine to admit we’re struggling.
[57:51] Gary Parsons:
I’ve had a rocky couple of weeks with some anxiety and self-doubt.
But looking at the positive side, I’m in a position where I’m being paid to do something I enjoy.
How great is that?
[58:10] Gary Parsons:
I’m also switching off at the right times and doing things outside this work.
This topic is my life’s mission, but I can also get on a horse, go riding, camp and enjoy activities that have nothing to do with that mission.
I have a lovely balance in my life.
[58:34] Darren Jamieson:
That sounds like a beautiful place to finish, because we’re out of time—although I could talk to you for much longer.
[58:39] [Laughter]
[58:39] Darren Jamieson:
As a final point, somebody listening may love what you’ve said and want to learn more.
Whether they’re interested in the PSA or want to hire you to speak at an event, what’s the best way to contact you?
[58:55] Gary Parsons:
You can find me on social media—YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn and elsewhere—under Gary Parsons UK.
There is one R in Gary, and Parsons is spelled P-A-R-S-O-N-S.
Search for Gary Parsons UK.
[59:10] Gary Parsons:
You can also visit my website, which conveniently has the correct address: garyparsons.uk.
Please feel free to send me a message.
I genuinely don’t mind. I’m happy to exchange messages or have a conversation online.
[59:27] Gary Parsons:
The world can feel very closed sometimes.
If something is happening in your life right now, please reach out.
If I’m the only person you ever contact, we can still have a valuable conversation that makes a difference to your life and your organisation.
[59:47] Darren Jamieson:
Fantastic, Gary. Thank you very much.
I’ll include links to the website and social-media profiles beneath the podcast.
If you’re watching on YouTube, they’ll be in the description. If you’re listening through iTunes, Spotify, Amazon or another platform, they’ll be in the show notes.
Thank you very much for being a guest on The Engaging Marketeer.
[01:00:04] Gary Parsons:
Thank you. Thanks very much.
[01:00:11] [Music]
